Titanic Bodies on seabed

James said: The whole topic of salvagers and personal items being "salvaged" (savaged?) from the debris is one that tends to bring out language in me that would likely get me banned from this message board, so all I will say is that I am appalled at the things done by the salvagers. }

As Moderator I would like to thank you for your choice of words. LOL!!!!
 
I won't defend that remark, but as far as the broader scheme of things goes with regard to whoppers told in the salvage controversy, nothing will ever top:

"Worst of all the crows nest is gone, undoubtedly in the act of getting at the telephone."

Just my two cents.
 
Posted on Saturday, 22 February, 2003 - 7:42 am:

>>"I won't defend that remark, but as far as the broader scheme of things goes with regard to whoppers told in the salvage controversy, nothing will ever top:"

"Worst of all the crows nest is gone, undoubtedly in the act of getting at the telephone." <<

Just my two cents.

Once I can find the link to the large write-up on the crow's nest and the telephone issue that was written by Matt Tulloch and Roy M. I will post it. As it was on the RMS Titanic web-site prior to the take over by Arnie Geller and company.

It will clear up this old issue in great detail about the crow's nest and the telephone which was recovered from the debris field. As shown in Illustrations and video.

To sum it up if I remember correctly the crow's nest was damaged during the sinking, and most likely fell off as result of a cable being cut to access the area near the ships name for the purpose of getting a good illustration of the name on the bow of the ship. The cable if I remember correctly had to be cut so that the rusticles could be swept off the hull to find the name. This sweeping of the hull is also shown in video. The cable can be seen laying across the crow's nest in the 1985-1986 Ballard National Geographic Illustrations. The one thing you also don't see in these Illustrations is the bell.

As for the used car salesmen crack, yes I would buy a car from Mr. Tulloch, as he owned and operated the largest BMW dealership in Connecticut.

"Just my two cents"

No further comments on the issue of salvage other then to post the link once I find it, If it still available.
 
I don't have the summary but I do have downloaded on my computer the photos of the phone lying on the ocean floor before it was recovered.

I think what caused a lot of the misinformation to get started was because there were some people in RMSTI who after recovery of the bell and phone, made the wrong assumption that they originally came from the crows nest, which then got picked up on by Ballard and company to indicate that they were ripped out of the crows nest itself (though in Ballard's case he should have known better if he'd bothered to look at his own photos).
 
In re owning and operating the largest of something as a measure of reliability: Enron. WorldCom. Global Crossing.

I have been aware of Mr. Tulloch's history for a good many years, and I stand by my comment.
 
When is it wrong to salvage, plunder, scavenge?
How long must you wait before unearthing or bringing up from the deep historical artifacts?
The gray area is huge and we all fall on different sides of the issue.
It's a double edged sword for me. I relish the time I viewed the artifacts, yet it kind of pained me that they were not left where they came to rest 90 some years ago.
Really hard to say.
-Don
 
The likelyhood of bodies being found, or remains for that matter is none. The Ph level at that depth is around 4 like stomach acid, and would eat bone in a matter of weeks. As for the ship, it may only stand a few more years before it's own weight crushes it.
 
"How long must you wait before unearthing or bringing up from the deep historical artifacts?"

There is not and should be no fixed date to apply this standard. It entirely depends on the event itself and whether or not it is already deemed essential from the standpoint of its impact on history, and the accessibility factor to the artifacts in question.

That the passage of time can not be fixed was borne out during the Ground Zero recovery efforts in which numerous museums were allowed to take artifacts for displays pertaining to Ground Zero. This even included objects such as the battered remains of a NYC fire truck. In this instance, the point was that the need was there to act quickly.

With Titanic, the amount of time was dictated solely by our ability to reach the site and once it was reached, it was essential IMO to begin a recovery process. For me, there is nothing extra about an artifact "lying where it was" as opposed to being put in a preserved setting for people to see more up close and in detail in ways that a photo can not convey and I have never had any regard for the argument that a teacup is somehow more special lying on the ocean floor then being preserved to see up close with one's own eyes.
 
Hello everyone. I am new here so please be gentle with me!
I found this fantastic site by accident and would just like to congratulate everyone involved for such a knowledgeable and friendly forum.
Now, here's my question:
I know that it is impossible for divers to explore the wreck of the Titanic without submersibles due to the enormous water pressure down there. I am wondering what effect this pressure would have had on the bodies of those unfortunates who went down with the ship.

Thank you in advance and once again congratulations on this wonderful site.

Sue
A bit gruesome to consider, but the victims would have succumbed to one of two scenarios.
1) If they were trapped somewhere inside the hull, the air filled cavities would have collapsed under the imense water pressure envelopping them. Every cell, including blood also contains air. This would have been compressed also, to the point of disintergrating implosion releasing the air in the process.
2) As any fan of criminal forensics, or diving, or swimming would know.... If you where not trapped inside the hull, and / or weighted down, you would simply float....never EVER reaching the bottom as even bones contain air. (If all else was ignored and a free diver wanted to reach that depth, the wieght belt would have to be impossibly heavy for the diver to stand up and walk to the edge of the boat to enter the water....ignoring this the speed of decent would rip off all og their gear on the way down as with plane crash victims and sky scrapper fall victims)

The victims that were never found either:
A) were trapped inside and where totally pulverised from implosive pressure...turning instantly into a wet pulp dust
B) died from the cold and or drowning and later consumed by sea life.

The shoes that have been photographed on the sea bed were once upon a time inside lugguage. Most likely cheap hemp sack cloth baggage that a poor migrant would most likely have brought onboard. This luguage having years ago deteriorated, leaving behingd the highly treated, by virtue of manufacturing process, rot resistant leather.

Victims that died on the surface would have floated way too far from the wreck site to be found and or associated with this disaster.

So No! NO "intact" or percievable as a human would have come anywhere close to landing on the sea bed.

However, the shoes...knowing now, that they were probably inside a poor imigrants cheap hemp bag still smashes home the sadness of this whole avoidable horrible disater in so many ways.
 
Free diving inside Titanic would be a very, very dangerous activity. ROV's will always be the best way to explore the wreck, even if the technology to free dive that deep were to come about. Its just a matter of safety.

Now a Virtual Reality ROV that would allow you to virtually dive inside Titanic might be possible someday in the not too distant future. But then you have to weight the value of such an adventure against the possibility of causing uneccesary damage to the wreck. But if your quest is to see human remains inside the wreck, I wouldn't bet the farm on finding any.

However, that said, its still not impossible for there to be a location somewhere inside the wreck where a body is still located. Somehow preserved by being covered with grease or something. (Yes, I'm really reaching here. I know the odds against such a thing are very high.)

But at least it is 'possible'. However unlikely.

Yuri
Titanic VR intensifies
 
I know that Engineer Shepard suffered a violent death in boiler room 5 when the bulkhead failed. This after he had just broken his leg.

Even though the bow section sank slowly, there was plenty of destruction going on that would cause injury or death to people. Falling funnels, snaping cables, not to mention the aggressive actions of other people who had panicked. So I would think that probably everyone that died in the bow section also suffered a violent death. That is because unless a violent event occurred to stop someone from moving aft, everyone should have escaped the bow section. Especially the forecastle. Those that met their end below decks in the bow were ultimatly stopped from escape by something terrible. Just like the engineers in boiler room 5.

As far as bodies making the trip to the bottom in the bow section, I think it would depend on where in the bow section the body was located. It seems that there was more destruction caused by rushing water the farther aft. So bodies located nearer the tear in the bow section would have seen similar fates as those in the stern section.

There may have been areas in the forecastle that would have allowed some bodies to remain intact and undisturbed for the ride to the bottom. But again, I think everyone made it out of this area before the bow sank.

Yuri
Hello there you all! I would like to tell Yuri that Shepard probably got out of boiler room 5. I read in a post that there was even an account of him on the stern! Thank you and have a good day!
 
Imagine you are inside cabin E162 just as the lights went out. You are leaning against the forward bulkhead,(wall),as it is now quickly becoming the floor of your cabin. Your respiratory system is at maximum from sheer anxiety. Your heart rate is at maximum for the same reason. You can't see anything in the darkness. Your hear a roar of noise that is growing louder by the second.

If you could see out of your cabin's porthole, you would notice the ocean's surface swiftly pass by, like the floor of a hotel when seen from a glass elevator going down. Instantly you would have felt disorientation as the cabin began to tilt and rotate in several directions. You may have been rolled onto the other walls or even the ceiling. Within a couple of seconds of submersion you would feel the air pressure increase dramatically, affecting your respiration and inner ears. Loose items in your cabin would be tossed around the room along with you and depending on size or shape, could have caused injuries such as lacerations, blunt trauma, twisted joints and broken bones.

Very soon after submersion the walls of your cabin would have began to loose structural integrity as the violent destruction of support columns and joists farther forward migrated back to your cabin. The result would have been cracks in the floors, ceilings and walls. The walls may even seperate completely from themselves and from the floor and ceiling. Your cabin would begin to tear itself apart.

Moments later an explosion of freezing sea water would have blasted into your cabin, dislodging walls, plumbing, and everything else in its path. Your body, already stressed physically and emotionally, would have been dislodged as well from whatever solid object it was resting on at that moment. In the violent, destructive flurry of furniture, glass, cloth, wood, and steel you would have been swirled around and then pinned with crushing strength in the wreckage.

Now three things would have happened to end your life at this point.
First, you could easily have been crushed by the wreckage swirling around you. Much like a bug in a wheelbarrow full of bricks being dumped out. In this case your end would have been instantaneous.

Second, you could have survived the initial flooding of your cabin, only to find yourself tangled in the debris floating everywhere. The water pressure would almost immediately force all the air out of your lungs, and implode your eardrums. You probably would not notice the freezing temperature of the water around you. In this case, you could have lived for a short time before you went unconcious from lack of oxygen.
You would have died quickly afterward as your heart went into arrest, and your brain activity stopped soon thereafter.

Lastly, you could have died when your brain simply shut down from exessive stress. That is you pass out from emotional trauma. In this case, like that above, your body would meet its end from lack of air, but without all the struggling to escape.

In any case, you would not have survived the trip to the bottom past about a couple thousand feet deep. Once dead, your remains would have floated inside the wreck as it descended downward. As the stern continued to break apart on the way down, stong currents of water would be swirling inside the wreck. It's possible that your body would have been caught up in a current of water and swept about inside the stern along with other debris items. Many of these items were blown out of the stern as it sank. Your body may have also been picked up by water and pushed outside the hull through an opening. If this happened, your body would have already been fully invaded by the seawater and thus would likely have continued to sink down to the sea bed, although much slower than the heavier pieces.

On the way down, sea creatures may have encountered your body and consumed it, or carried it off for consumption later. Or it could have eventually sank all the way to the bottom and landed gently in the sea mud, where it would be quickly decomposed.

Of course your body could easily have remained tangled in the wreckage inside the stern all the way to the bottom. Upon impact, a repeat of the violent swirling of debris and water would have occurred just as when your cabin was flooded near the surface. This second wave of destruction would cause further damage to your body as entire decks collapsed and walls fell flat. Dismemberment of your remains would be likely.

Once at the bottom, items would begin to settle into their final resting places. Heavy items drifting down to the lowest point inside the wreck. Any boyant items still trapped inside would continue to rest at the highest points inside the wreck. Your remains would have came to rest at the bottom of the wreck, along with the other non-boyant items.

If your body was still deep inside the wreck, away from sea creatures, or the acidic mud, then your remains would decompose at a much slower rate than the bodies lying outside the wreck.
Perhaps your bones would still be present some years later. But as the steel of the wreck became covered in rust, your remains would also become covered in silt, and rust.

90 years later, all that would be left of you would be any rust-proof jewelry, or metal objects you wore. Perhaps the shoes on your feet would still be found. But any organic material that once was your body would be long gone. Returned to the sea.

Gruesome, but complex and fascinating. Not the type thing to dwell on, especially regarding a loved one. I drew most of this description from a documentary I saw about crab fishermen who worked in Alaska. Their biggest fear and danger, is to be tangled in the lines attached to the crab pot (trap) and be swept overboard along with the pot. The steel pot weighs a couple hundred pounds and sinks to the bottom in about 5 minutes. The depth there is about 600 feet. They actually made a dramatization of such an accident which stated the details about how the fisherman would perish in such an accident. In their reproduction of the event, the conclusion was that the man would probably not be alive when the pot hit bottom.
Really makes me want to be a crab fisherman. Not.

Yuri
I remember a discussion along these lines with respect to the sinking of the Anrea Gail in the "Perfect Storm" book.
 
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