marina_irc
Member
All of your quotes from serious men are about bulkheads giving way lower in the hull where there is at least another atmosphere of pressure, and do not address my comment.
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What happened to the Forward Tower?
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Rob Lawes
Member
The condenser outlet was always above the water line so I'm not sure where you got that from?
Boats 11 (soaked by the outlet) and 13 (pushed aft by the discharge) were affected by it. Neither of these two boats or boat 15 launched within moments of boat 13, report being affected by the significant list to port that you describe.
marina_irc
Member
If there was a list of 40 degrees while those boats were being lowered in all certainty those boats and everyone in them would have perished. Any extreme lists before the last starboard boat is finished lowering away are impossible by the laws of reality and invalidate the theory. It's only possible to entertain discussion of an extreme list after lowering has been completed--and even then we have plenty of evidence against it.
Aaron_2016
Guest
As the ship settled bodily as sections further aft flooded the starboard discharge outlet would submerge as well as the port one. When she began to roll over to port the starboard outlet raised above the water to a degree that soaked the occupants of the lifeboat. When lifeboat 15 was lowered the ship had rolled over so much to port that Frank Dymond said their boat had smashed against the side of the ship and damaged the gunwale by the thumping and scraping as they went down her side. Collapsible C had even more difficulty as their boat kept catching on the rivets which hampered the lowering of the boat. Frank Prentice said the ship righted and they finally managed to get the starboard side boats away as they were no longer stuck against the ship's side. "We couldn't get them down because she had a list to port, and you can imagine half way down they would have hit the side."
The bow was tapered at the front with watertight doors below and above, with narrow passageways, boxed in rooms, cargo, mail, and coal reserve which would occupy a large percentage of space in the cramped bow section. The water would rise rapidly up from the mail room section and spill onto the E-deck corridor. The weight of water in the bow was only sufficient to pull her head down as far as E-deck. From that moment she flooded significantly slow, which created the illusion she was not going to sink any further. Even when lifeboat 13 rowed away shortly before she went down the occupants could see her starboard bow was still only down as far as E-deck, while the survivors on the port side could see her entire broadside settling very low in the water.
Lifeboat 13 survivors
Mr. Caldwell
"At first, she seemed unharmed but, as we looked toward the bow of the ship, we could see that the lower line of portholes extended down into the water. The lights on the Titanic burned until a few minutes before she sank."
Mr. Beesley
"There was nothing else to indicate she was injured.......The lowest portholes in the bows were under the sea......We rowed away from her in the quietness of the night, hoping and praying with all our hearts that she would sink no more and the day would find her still in the same position as she was then."
Mr. Littlejohn
"Her forward E-deck ports were under the water and we could see the lights gradually go out on the E-deck as she settled down. All her other lights were burning brilliantly and she looked a blaze of light from stem to stern. We watched her like this for some time, and then suddenly she gave a plunge forward."
Miss Dowdell
"Then there was one great explosion. I guessed it was the boilers. The Titanic did not stay up long after that, but tilted, bow downward, with a great part of the stern in the air. She steadied for a moment, then plunged under. Her lights were burning to the last."
A number of survivors saw the same thing i.e. the ship settling steadily and then the bow breaks and lurches forward and downward, before rising upward as the middle goes down.
All water that entered C, D, E, decks would spill down to the lowest accessible sections forward middle and aft owing to the lack of the forward trim and the natural and unnatural bending of the ship along her beam with possible sagging in the middle, and the roll to port would bottle that water against the port side and effectively delay the sinking of the ship and buy her more time. Even when the forward well deck had submerged the water would rush along the corridor and bottle against the port side cabins, rolling her over so much that Colonel Gracie thought she as going to capsize.
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Rob Lawes
Member
That would still only describe a slight list to port. The list you describe (over 10 degrees) would have prevented lifeboat 15 from launching at all.
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Actually there was a list to port when No. 15 was lowered. The list to port started about that time (Nos. 9, 11 & 13 were not affected by it but Nos. 15 as well as Nos. 10, 12 & 14). However the list was not so big.
When collapsible C was loaded and launched there was a list to port which QM Rowe estimated to had been about 5 to 6 degrees to port. Sam Halpern calculated a list of about 10°.
Of course it could have been not above it.
marina_irc
Member
Aaron, even non-watertight bulkheads resist and slow the passage of water. Pressure is pushing the water up until in equilibrium with the free surface.
The ship is longer than she is wide; a ten degree trim to the bow will result in the bow being much further below the water than you seem to appreciate in your posts.
Flooding aft on E deck would find it easier to pour back down into the next nearest watertight compartment, so almost none would be going aft. Certainly not enough to flood three entire WTCs like in your drawings.
The ship is longer than she is wide; a ten degree trim to the bow will result in the bow being much further below the water than you seem to appreciate in your posts.
Flooding aft on E deck would find it easier to pour back down into the next nearest watertight compartment, so almost none would be going aft. Certainly not enough to flood three entire WTCs like in your drawings.
Aaron_2016
Guest
The port list (roll) was gradual. No one is suggesting she rolled immediately 20 - 50 degrees to port. She righted herself on several occasions and rolled back over to port again so much that she appeared to be about to topple over. When lifeboats 2 and 4 were lowered the roll to port was significantly worse. The ship was continually rocking from side to side and eventually twisted herself apart.
John Haggan
"The ship was shaking very much."
Miss Glynn
"We watched the Titanic rolling and bobbing like a cork. All her lights were burning, and over the water we caught the strains of 'Nearer, My God, to Thee. Finally Titanic ceased rolling, seemed to hesitate a moment, and plunged her bow into the ocean."
Mr. Barkworth
"I remember somebody shouted: 'Go gently!' as if a sudden shift of weight would have disturbed the ship's position."
Colonel Gracie
"There was a very palpable list to port as if the ship was about to topple over. 'All passengers to the starboard side,' was Lightoller's loud command, heard by all of us."
Samuel Hemming
"The captain was there, and he sung out: "Everyone over to the starboard side, to keep the ship up as long as possible."
2nd officer Lightoller
"I think the ship righted. When the order was given to the passengers to go to the starboard side. I am under the impression that a great many went over and the ship got a righting movement......the ship took a dive, reeling for a moment, then plunging."
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Aaron_2016
Guest
A 10 degree trim towards the bow would submerge the forward half of the ship. A number of survivors did not see her like that when she broke. Even when Mr. Pearcey got into collapsible C he watched the ship settle down and noticed she was not going down by the head. I recall another survivor who tried to debunk the rumours that the bow sank down and he said that the ship appeared to sink 'all at once'. I believe the ship began to buckle open when the forward half was still appreciably above the water. The explosions were estimated to be up to 10 minutes apart. The second one was characterised as 'the big one' with the total separation of the ship, but the first one was speculated by the survivors and examiners to be the collapse of a bulkhead, the bursting of a watertight door, the implosion of boiler room 4, or the initial buckling and first signs of breaking.
Mr. Brice
Q - How far apart in time, probably, were the two explosions?
A - From 8 to 10 minutes.
QM Olliver
Q - Did you hear explosions?
A - I heard several little explosions, but it was not such explosions as I expected to hear.
Q - Were these before or after she sank?
A - Before she sank and while she was sinking.
Q - What did you think those explosions were?
A - Myself, I thought they were like bulkheads giving in.
Mr. Clench
"I heard two explosions."
Q - Then in about 10 minutes there was another explosion?
A - There was another explosion, but I could not say how long from one to the other.
Q - How long a time would you say it was after the second explosion before she sank out of sight?
A - I should say a matter of about 20 minutes.
Q - Then did the ship disappear?
A - The lights went out after the second explosion. Then she gradually sank down into the water very slowly.
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marina_irc
Member
BTW, a post by Mark Chirnside from 2003 cited Edward Wilding, a HW Engineer, as saying the boilers wouldn't leave their footings until a trim or list of 35 degrees was obtained, and the engines possibly not even then; we know as a matter of fact such a condition was not obtained before the ship broke up.
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Aside that No. 13 left about 1 hour before the ship went down it is interesting how you only quote the accounts which fit with what you claim. No. 13 was rowing away and the people looked back from time to time.
Dowdell
"About two o'clock that morning we could notice the Titanic settling very rapidly, with the bows and the bridge completely under water. In a few moments she was devoured by the great waters of the ocean.
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"No sooner were we off that [sic] the Titanic began to go down rapidly. The bow disappeared first. (...)Then there was one great explosion. I guessed it was the boilers. The Titanic did not stay up long after that, but tilted, bow downward, with a great part of the stern in the air. She stayed for a moment, then plunged under.
Dr. Dodge
After we had been afloat possibly half an hour I observed, on looking at the steamer, that the line of lights from the portholes, showed that the vessel had settled forward into the water, but to no great extent. ... Watching the vessel closely, it was seen from time to time that this submergence forward was increasing. ... The gradual submersion of the vessel forward increased, and in about an hour was suddenly followed by the extinguishment of all the lights, which had been burning brightly, illuminating every deck and gleaming forth from innumerable portholes.
Beesley
In the distance she looked an enormous length, her great bulk outlined in black against the starry sky. Every porthole and saloon blazing with light. It was impossible to think anything could be wrong with such a leviathan, were it not for that ominous tilt downwards in the bows, where the water was by now up to the lowest row of port holes.
Presently, about 2 a.m., as near as I can remember, we observed her settling very rapidly, with the bows and the bridge completely under water and concluded it was now only a question of minutes before she went down, and so it proved.
Beesley from his book
There was nothing else to indicate she was injured; nothing but this apparent violation of a simple geometrical law - that parallel lines should "never meet even if produced ever so far both ways"; but it meant the Titanic had sunk by the head until the lowest portholes in the bows were under the sea, and the portholes in the stern were lifted above the normal height. We rowed away from her in quietness of the night, hoping and praying with all our hearts that she would sink no more and the day would find her still in the same position as she was then. The crew, however, did not think so. ... And all the time, as we watched, the Titanic sank lower by the head and the angle became wider and wider as the stern porthole lights lifted and the bow lights sank, and it was evident she was not to stay afloat much longer. ... At about 2:15 A.M. I think we were any distance from a mile to two miles away. ... About this time, the water had crept up almost to her sidelight and the captain's bridge, and it seemed a question only of minutes before she sank.
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
That section would remain dry only for some time. Marked in purple: water would come down from the staircase from E Deck, thought the fan room and the pipes in the swimming bath.
Aaron_2016
Guest
No, I was talking about the difference between the port side and the starboard side. I did not list every account from every available source, because I only wanted to show the difference between the port side and starboard side in relation to this topic. i.e. when the port side was down to C-deck the starboard side was still above the water to E-deck which correlates to the roll to port, and how the first explosion resulted in the bow taking a sudden lurch down into the water as it broke off.
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Aaron_2016
Guest
Yes, and that "some time" could have been significant as the ship was listing to starboard at the time it washed down into the turkish baths and Wheat closed the watertight door which stalled the flooding of the swimming pool area forward. The water would flood into the swimming pool when the ship eventually listed over to port. We don't know how much water went in before she broke because Joughin looked down the corridor and could see the corridor was practically dry as the ship rolled more to port. We don't know if the water washed into the port side cabins and left the corridor, or if the water had receded back down the staircase when / if the forward bulkheads collapsed. All we can do is speculate until a proper examination of the wreck is made to a satisfying degree.
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Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Mr. RAY.
I went along E deck and forward, and the forward part of E deck was under water. I could just manage to get through the doorway into the main stairway. I went across to the other side of the ship where the passengers' cabins were; saw nobody there. I looked to see where the water was and it was corresponding on that side of the ship to the port side.
