Why didn't Lorraine Allison get in a boat?

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Kris,

Very interesting indeed. You are right it is a sad mystery but it touches us all and also tends to make us mad. I know I've always wondered why the nurse ran off, as it certainly looks like she did.

Fear? Stupidity? I think a little of both. I do also feel some blame lies with Mrs. Allison as she should have exercised more control over her employee than what it appears she did. And if there was some difficulty with this nurse being either high-strung or otherwise unstable, all the more reason to keep close watch on her. And I think Mr. Allison should have stepped in as disciplinarian if his wife was unable to cope with this nurse.

I realize it may be unwise to make assumptions as to the personalities of those involved in this little saga but I can't help thinking that Mrs. Allison was not quite a responsible mother, that the nurse was erratic and thus unfit for her position, and that Mr. Allison was indifferent or else not very observant.

In my opinion it was ridiculous for that couple to think that their baby son was not already safely away in a lifeboat. Even if they truly thought he and the silly nurse were lost somewhere, why not save their daughter at least? If they had elected to stay together, why subject their child to that horrible death?

It boggles the mind, that story.

Oh, and thanks, Kris, for sending the excerpt from The Liners. No, I've never read those passages and it is very true. The American buyers like Edith Russell who criss-crossed the ocean several times a year were truly the seasoned travellers, far more so even than the glitterati.

Randy

 

[Kris Muhvic]

---And let us not forget the maid than seemed to run off before anyone else! If not for the fact the ship was sinking, I would take that as a solid "I quit!".

And that could have been the problem. Quite possibly Bess depended more on her (soon to be abscent) maid than the newly-hired nanny/nurse. We may never know.

One thing I thought of is that Titanic is always considered a microcosim of the Gilded Age, and the Allisons could be a further, broken down version of smug, arrogant complacency. Unfortunatly, tragically backfiring.

Randy- I'm glad you took interest in the buyers parts. Not much, I know, but what I could offer!

Also, your questioning Bess's responcibility: she did come from WI; I have been there, wonderful, and a hearty lot they are...not the gilt-caged doves one would think of Bess being!

Take care-
Kris

 

[Colleen Collier]

Hi guys. I have looked at this a little more, and would like to add more to the mix...
I believe that Sara Daniels was Loraine's nurse, and shared a room with her, so as far as to why Alice took Trevor and not Loraine, I would have to say because she wasn't paid to.
Sara woke Hudson due to the fear of danger, and he became angered at her, so I suppose she decided to save herself, left and got into a lifeboat. Had he not blown up at her, and both she and Alice been together dressing the children and agreeing on a plan of action for BOTH the children with Bess, this doubtfully would have happened. Sometimes people react so unlike themselves in high stress, dangerous situations like this, no one can really know what she was thinking. Once panic sets in, it is like wildfire, and near impossible to get under control.
The sad part is she and Loraine WERE in a lifeboat at one point, and instead of understanding the seriousness of it, she got out to go to the other side to be with her husband.
This is just one story that we know. Think of the hundreds of others in second and third class that were played out similarly that will never even be mentioned.
Truly, a sad sad story...

Colleen

 

[Mathew Owen]

Does anyone know anything about Alice Cleaver supposedly killing her own baby? Apparently, a baby was found having been thrown off a train, found to be Alice Cleavers, she was tried for it but pleaded insanity, and was let off (from Titanic: An Illustrated History). Obviously if this was true, the Allisons weren't aware of it. However, suppose Alice was recognised while on board as no doubt her face would have been in the papers. Perhaps Mrs Allison found out of the crime and this would explain why she was so anxious to find her little boy? If anybody's seen the 1996 miniseries 'Titanic', it tells the story of the Allisons, a stewardess recognises Alice, though the Allisons never find out. What if this suggestion was true? This would definitely explain Bess' panic to find baby Trevor.

 

[Phillip Gowan]

Mathew,
Alice Catherine Cleaver was the Allison's maid and never was in jail and never killed anyone. She was born to a postal employee in 1889, married and had three daughters and lived to be 95, dying in 1984 in England.

The child murderer was a woman named Alice Mary Cleaver who was the illegitimate child of an illegitmate child and then she herself had an out-of wedlock son--the one that she killed. She was judged insane and incarcerated and was never really released to freedom. She suffered from tuberculosis and in its end stages was moved to a sanitarium called the Hostel of God where she died in February of 1915.

As I recently said on another thread, this story has taken on a life of its own and will never go away. It is a matter of confusing two women with similar names.

Hope this clears it up.

Phillip

 

[Rob Ottmers]

Matthew, to second Phil's comments, check out the book "From Workhouse to Prison to ..... the Titanic?" by Dinah Burnett. It's an absolute shame that Titanic history has so soundly dishonored Alice Cleaver's reputation. Let us hope the future will be kinder.

 

[Phillip Gowan]

One more postscript. Dinah Burnett is apparently a pseudonym as Alice Cleaver did not have a daughter named Dinah.

Phil

 

[Amanda Ratliff]

Very few document the fact that Alice Cleaver Saved little Trevors life. Whether she kidnapped the child, took him in a moment of panic, or was attending her duty as she saw fit, the result was the same and little trevor survived...

The movie that was mentioned before in reguards to the Cleaver Murderess also portrayed Bess as being a hysterical panic. In those days women depended on their husbands and she very well may not have known what to do. A lower class woman like Cleaver may have been more independent, realized the ship was in trouble and decided that she would save herself and her charge if she coudln't convince mrs. alison to go. Third class passengers or someone from Alice's background would have been more realistic in the impending disaster

 

[Mathew Owen]

Thanks Phillip and Rob. I think I'll look for that book.

It is a shame that Alice Cleaver's memory has been tainted in this way.

 

[John Clifford]

Another aspect to this story: the "Alice Mary vs. Alice Catherine" story surfaced AFTER the 1996 CBS Movie.
Don Lynch had met with the family members of Alice Cleaver; however, for some reason, things did not work out, and he chose not to rewrite the Cleave Story.

The other part of the story was that Sarah Daniels, apparently, had gone to check out what had happened, after being chastised by Hudson Allison.
While on deck, she was told that someone would take care of her party, and that the lifeboat launch was a precaution, at which she entered Lifeboat 8.

Unfortunately, there is no information as to what happened to Sarah Daniels, after the Carpathia reached New York. My though would be that she was dismissed by the Allison family, and found work elsewhere, probably marrying, and dying without ever mentioning, to others, that she was on the TITANIC.

Walter Lord also mentioned that the Allisons were last seen, together, and that "no amount of force or coercion would prompt Bess Allison to enter a lifeboat".
I would figure that Bess and Hudson would have been terribly upset, if they had survived, and Trevor had died.

 

[Brian Meister]

John,

I would be very interested in your source for
the information about Sarah Daniels firstly
being chastised by Hudson Allison, and secondly
about being put into Number 8 specifically.
Is there an account which supports this, or just
a story in a book somewhere?
As to the manner of exodus from the Titanic
of the Allison servants: I believe that somehow,
Mildred Brown, the cook travelling 2nd class
with the chauffeur, George Swane, ended up in
Boat 11 because of her roommate. She had just been hired, and was not needed during the voyage.
She would not have had access to the family
during the voyage. Alice seized the child. We
do not know whether Bess told her to go ahead.
We do not know whether she was fear oriented.
She and the Allisons could have set up a meeting
time and place which was confused and one or the
other went to the wrong place.
Somehow, Alice Cleaver and Trevor ended up
in Boat 11 with Miss Brown, the cook. There is
nothing to suggest that they knew they were in
the same boat.
Taking all of Mike Standarts' stipulations
into account: the answer, to me, was simple.
They are not allowing men to enter the boats.
Hudson Allison should have prevailed upon his
wife, like so many others did, to obey him and
enter a boat with Loraine. Two away, and out
of danger, the search for Trevor could begin.
It seems an impossible situation with a now
hysterical wife, and a two year old in tow,
to do any kind of organized and methodical
search. (My apologies to the ladies) It seems
to me, Hudson Allison sucumbed to the panic
displayed by his wife. I was not there and
will not judge another's actions, but feel
that this was the scenario.

 

[John Clifford]

Brian, my source for the Allison family story is Don Lynch's "Illustrated History".
The story was also repeated on "Titanic: Death of a Dream/The Legend Lives On".

 

[Iain Stuart Yardley]

Brian wrote - "Somehow, Alice Cleaver and Trevor ended up in Boat 11 with Miss Brown, the cook. There is nothing to suggest that they knew they were in the same boat".

Didn't Mildred Brown write a letter to her mother from New York saying that she found herself in the same boat as the nurse (Cleaver) and baby (Travers)? I don't know if she knew whilst in the lifeboat or found out later, though.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Boz

 

[Michael Findlay]

Hi Iain,

Yes, Mildred Brown did write a letter to her mother from New York claiming that Alice Cleaver and baby Trevor were in her lifeboat:

"No sooner was I on deck that I was bustled to the first-class deck and pushed into one of the boats and I found nurse and the baby were there."
Given that this statement was not written by a reporter, or published in a newspaper or magazine at the time, it seems that Mildred Brown's own words to her mother seem to settle the issue once and for all.

Mike Findlay

 

[Brian Meister]

I have copies of the Brown letters, as well.
Having re-read them, I can see that she dis-
covered Miss Cleaver and the baby in the boat
already.
The thread topic is why the Allisons and
Loraine were lost, and why Hudson and Bess
Allison failed to realize te peril of their
young daughter. Unfortunately, no one alive
can settle that question.