Wilde after Lifeboat #2

[Dan E. Parkes]

I'm of the view that Lightoller suffered guilt and I note that he was buried at sea at Titanic's assumed sinking location.,

I think you might be confusing Lightoller with Boxhall. Lightoller's ashes were not scattered at sea (as were Boxhall's) but at the Commonwealth "Garden of Remembrance" at Mortlake Crematorium in Richmond, Surrey.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I always found this claim quite strange, despite it slowly being more often claimed as a fact. Lightoller gave a few versions of what was told to him by captain Smith. Firstly we have this in his first testimony on the 19th of April 1912:

Secondly we have his testimony on the 12th day of the British Board of Trade Inquiry on the 21st of May 1912:

In his 1935 memoirs he told:

In his 1936 radio interview to the BBC he told:

As you can read through the testimonies it appears captain Smith wasn't specific about if men were allowed in or not. Unlike what the 1997 movie showcases. Lightoller his reasoning why so many lifeboats were filled under the certificated 65 capacity was also based on the opinion, which third officer Pitman and fifth officer Lowe shared, that the floating capacity wasn't the lowering capacity.
Second officer Lightoller at the first day of the American Senate Inquiry mentioned the following:


On day four he gave the following information:

At the British Board Of Trade inquiry, as questioned by solicitor-general John Simon on the twelfth day he gave the following information:


What do you believe Lightoller made up?

Thanks for the above.

I believe that Lightoller made up the gangway story as an excuse for his underfilled boats in relation to Murdoch's and probably some feelings of guilt. I tend towards believing him when he suggests that Smith nodded or at least understood that boats had left underfilled as not only was Smith said to be helping with early boats but more tellingly Smith used his megaphone late on to call boats back to take more passengers.

This tells me that Smith was aware of some of the boats were underfilled. I think Smith's priority was to avoid panic and give the impression that this was purely being cautious and he probably expected that the ship's light they saw would continue towards them due to the distress flares. He probably also expected that most boats would pick up passengers from the water certainly more than happened in reality.

However, I expect that Smith wasn't exclusively tied to Lightoller and would have seen Murdoch's approach as well. I have the impression that he trusted his officers to use their own judgement. I give note to just how much pressure he would have been under at this time and the amount of calls on his attention he would have been under. Personally I don't think that Smith meant 'women and children' only specifically, but that he delegated those decisions. Ultimately I think that was the wrong call and he should have ensured full boats.

I'm of the view that hindsight being what it was that Lightoller himself thought he took the wrong action and I note that in the letter he wrote to Murdoch's widow and that the surviving officers signed he made it clear the high esteem that Murdoch was held in. To me this at least suggests that they regarded his interpretation of Smith's order as the correct one.

This is of course only my opinion, which considering the limited information we will probably always have, will always be somewhat open to conjecture. I hold both Smith and his officers in high esteem, with Murdoch a stand out.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I think you might be confusing Lightoller with Boxhall. Lightoller's ashes were not scattered at sea (as were Boxhall's) but at the Commonwealth "Garden of Remembrance" at Mortlake Crematorium in Richmond, Surrey.

I must have, thank you for the correction.

 

[Thomas Krom]

I believe that Lightoller made up the gangway story as an excuse for his underfilled boats in relation to Murdoch's and probably some feelings of guilt.

First things first. Some of the lifeboats loaded and lowered under the supervision of first officer Murdoch left with empty seats too, lifeboat number 7 left with 28 occupants, lifeboat number 5 left with only slightly more than 40 people (based on my own counting, lifeboat number 3 left with around 32 occupants, emergency lifeboat 1 left with 12 occupants, lifeboat number 9 left with around 35-40 people, it goes on a bit like that and the only lifeboat that was filled to it fullest was lifeboat number 15 with around 68 occupants. Keep in mind I am a big admirer of Murdoch his career at sea, his personality as well as his actions that fateful night, but both he and Lightoller had the same factors against them. From reluctant passengers to empty decks, those sorts of problems were faced by both.

And secondly, the word to open the gangway door seemed to have been spread around as fifth officer Lowe recalled it too on the 13th day of the British Board of Trade inquiry (22nd of May 1912):

15908.	Sir Sidney Rowlatt	What grounds or evidence had you for the opinion you formed that there were going to be additional people put in the lifeboats from the gangways?
	Fifth officer Lowe	- I really forget now. I must have overheard it.
15909.	Sir Sidney Rowlatt	Do you remember whom you overheard saying it?
	Fifth officer Lowe	- I do not.
15910.	Sir Sidney Rowlatt	Did you hear any instructions given for these gangways to be opened?
	Fifth officer Lowe	- Had I any instructions?
15911.	Sir Sidney Rowlatt	Did you hear any instructions given?
	Fifth officer Lowe	- No; but as I say, I overheard a conversation somewhere referring to the gangway doors being opened, and that the boatswain and a crowd of men had been sent down there.

Then there's the physical evidence as well that human interference can be seen at the wreck. When the wreck was discovered in 1985 the forward port side gangway door was open, which was located right below lifeboat number 6 which Lightoller was loading at the time. The evidence that human interference opened these doors is that the folding gate in front of the door, that required a key, is in the folded position. The other gangway doors, including the one beside it, still has their gates closed. And while I disagree that boatswain Nichols and his men never made it back, as Lightoller claimed (per the excellent article by Brad Payne), I don't believe it's fair to say that Lightoller lied about the order given. Samuel Halpern, Arun Vajpey and I discussed it all a bit before in a previous thread.

This tells me that Smith was aware of some of the boats were underfilled. I think Smith's priority was to avoid panic and give the impression that this was purely being cautious and he probably expected that the ship's light they saw would continue towards them due to the distress flares. He probably also expected that most boats would pick up passengers from the water certainly more than happened in reality.

Based on the evidence there is he likely wanted to have the lifeboats away quick, row for the light, drop the passengers off and row back to pick up more.

However, I expect that Smith wasn't exclusively tied to Lightoller and would have seen Murdoch's approach as well. I have the impression that he trusted his officers to use their own judgement. I give note to just how much pressure he would have been under at this time and the amount of calls on his attention he would have been under. Personally I don't think that Smith meant 'women and children' only specifically, but that he delegated those decisions. Ultimately I think that was the wrong call and he should have ensured full boats.

Based on captain Smith his actions near lifeboats number 6 and 8 it appears that he indeed believed women and children only should have been allowed. According to Helen Candee he shouted:

"Hey, you two, come away from that boat! No men are allowed near the life-boats!

To Hugh Woolner and Mauritz Håkan Björnström-Steffansson (1883-1962)

To me this at least suggests that they regarded his interpretation of Smith's order as the correct one.

But there we have a small problem. We don't know if captain Smith gave Murdoch any orders on how to fill the lifeboats. How is it possible to make an interpretation of a conversation that has no evidence that it ever took place? It's pure speculation, and while I have no doubt words were exchanged between Smith and Murdoch (who was captain's Smith his first officer for nearly 5 years on the RMS Adriatic (II) and RMS Olympic) it's a bit unfair to judge Lightoller on it for we don't know what exactly was said.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Some of the lifeboats loaded and lowered under the supervision of first officer Murdoch left with empty seats too, lifeboat number 7 left with 28 occupants, lifeboat number 5 left with only slightly more than 40 people (based on my own counting, lifeboat number 3 left with around 32 occupants, emergency lifeboat 1 left with 12 occupants.

True, but there are differences too. From survivor statements like those by Symons, it appears that there was greater reluctance by passengers to board lifeboats on the starboard side earlier on. Of course, that would have been partly due to the fact that the starboard forward boats started loading much earlier than their port side counterparts, but I believe that Captain Smith's presence on the port side and his urging the women and children on might have also contributed to greater willingness there. I think it was Symons who commented that after all available people, including crew members, got into Lifeboat #1, there was no one left in the vicinity to board it. In my opinion, Murdoch wanted to "make a start" to lifeboat launching so that those reluctant would be able to see that it was safe enough. At that stage, Murdoch might have genuinely believed that those underfilled earlier lifeboats could be called back to take in more passengers later.

I am a big admirer of Murdoch his career at sea, his personality as well as his actions that fateful night, but both he and Lightoller had the same factors against them. From reluctant passengers to empty decks, those sorts of problems were faced by both.

True again, but we have to consider one very important thing. As far as I know, no survivor claimed that Murdoch ever denied anyone, even a crew member, a place in a lifeboat if there was room after all the available women and children had boarded. In fact, with those early starboard forward lifeboats, he tried to make-up numbers by allowing non-essential crew to board the boats when no one else was willing to come forward. The same thing cannot be said about Wilde, Lightoller and even Captain Smith were concerned on the port side, where there were several incidences where men - even teenage boys - were kept out even though there were empty spaces in the lifeboats.

That said, I agree that it might be unfair to blame only Lightoller for the loading policy with port side lifeboats. As I have pointed out before, he came third in the pecking order there after Captain Smith and Wilde; it is quite possible that it was one of those two gentlemen who first enforced that "women and children only" rule and Lightoller just continued it. But he survived, whereas the other two didn't, which would make it difficult to say.

 

[Stirlingsays]

First things first. Some of the lifeboats loaded and lowered under the supervision of first officer Murdoch left with empty seats too, lifeboat number 7 left with 28 occupants, lifeboat number 5 left with only slightly more than 40 people (based on my own counting, lifeboat number 3 left with around 32 occupants, emergency lifeboat 1 left with 12 occupants, lifeboat number 9 left with around 35-40 people, it goes on a bit like that and the only lifeboat that was filled to it fullest was lifeboat number 15 with around 68 occupants. Keep in mind I am a big admirer of Murdoch his career at sea, his personality as well as his actions that fateful night, but both he and Lightoller had the same factors against them. From reluctant passengers to empty decks, those sorts of problems were faced by both.

And secondly, the word to open the gangway door seemed to have been spread around as fifth officer Lowe recalled it too on the 13th day of the British Board of Trade inquiry (22nd of May 1912):

Then there's the physical evidence as well that human interference can be seen at the wreck. When the wreck was discovered in 1985 the forward port side gangway door was open, which was located right below lifeboat number 6 which Lightoller was loading at the time. The evidence that human interference opened these doors is that the folding gate in front of the door, that required a key, is in the folded position. The other gangway doors, including the one beside it, still has their gates closed. And while I disagree that boatswain Nichols and his men never made it back, as Lightoller claimed (per the excellent article by Brad Payne), I don't believe it's fair to say that Lightoller lied about the order given. Samuel Halpern, Arun Vajpey and I discussed it all a bit before in a previous thread.

Based on the evidence there is he likely wanted to have the lifeboats away quick, row for the light, drop the passengers off and row back to pick up more.

Based on captain Smith his actions near lifeboats number 6 and 8 it appears that he indeed believed women and children only should have been allowed. According to Helen Candee he shouted:

To Hugh Woolner and Mauritz Håkan Björnström-Steffansson (1883-1962)

But there we have a small problem. We don't know if captain Smith gave Murdoch any orders on how to fill the lifeboats. How is it possible to make an interpretation of a conversation that has no evidence that it ever took place? It's pure speculation, and while I have no doubt words were exchanged between Smith and Murdoch (who was captain's Smith his first officer for nearly 5 years on the RMS Adriatic (II) and RMS Olympic) it's a bit unfair to judge Lightoller on it for we don't know what exactly was said.

Thank you for the information I wasn't aware of on the physical evidence for the gangway, that does change things somewhat. Your other comments have also given me food for thought.