Inger Sheil
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Wilde during collision and sinking
- Thread starter Adam McGuirk
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Steve Krienke
Member
T. Eric Brown
Member
Wilde was reportedly last seen with the Collapsibles, trying to get them squared away. I also heard that several passengers reported seeing a few officers and several crew on top of the Officers' Quarters working with the boats. A few years ago I developed this theory that Wilde could have been knocked overboard as the boats came crashing to the deck. I saw it like this: Crew on top of the Officers' Quarters shoved the boat down the oars with Wilde directing them below. The boat then began to speed out of control as the oars began to snap. Wilde couldn't get out of the way in time and the boat rammed into him and knocked him overboard.
I recently discarded this theory, thinking it physically impossible. The dynamics of the situation just didn't fit (oars probably broke before it could have reached Wilde, the distance between him and the rail...) But I'd like an outside opinion. Is this possible? If it isn't, what are the more logical theories?
I recently discarded this theory, thinking it physically impossible. The dynamics of the situation just didn't fit (oars probably broke before it could have reached Wilde, the distance between him and the rail...) But I'd like an outside opinion. Is this possible? If it isn't, what are the more logical theories?
Inger Sheil
Member
I don't think that there were any reports of Wilde being seen at A or B, Eric - although he was seen at Collapsible C. Lightoller, when asked at the inquiries when he last saw the Chief Officer, stated that he had not seen him for some time.
One second hand source suggests that Wilde was last seen on the bridge - although hearsay, the particular individual reporting this had spoken to officers and crew about the sinking soon after they landed in NY, and he had personally known Wilde.
I suspect that Wilde was either working the last of the lifeboats but, given the conditions, was not recognised by anyone who knew him and lived to tell about it (in which case I'd suggest he was swept off like all the others in the same position), or he was performing some task we now know nothing of and are not in a position to know.
In either case, the possibilities are death by debris (e.g. falling funnels etc), drowning or hypothermia.
Flailing gear might cause his death, as it might have caused the deaths of others in that time and place, but without any eyewitness accounts to support this or a recovered body, it must remain pure speculation.
One second hand source suggests that Wilde was last seen on the bridge - although hearsay, the particular individual reporting this had spoken to officers and crew about the sinking soon after they landed in NY, and he had personally known Wilde.
I suspect that Wilde was either working the last of the lifeboats but, given the conditions, was not recognised by anyone who knew him and lived to tell about it (in which case I'd suggest he was swept off like all the others in the same position), or he was performing some task we now know nothing of and are not in a position to know.
In either case, the possibilities are death by debris (e.g. falling funnels etc), drowning or hypothermia.
Flailing gear might cause his death, as it might have caused the deaths of others in that time and place, but without any eyewitness accounts to support this or a recovered body, it must remain pure speculation.
Bill Wormstedt
Member
Lightoller, in his 1935 book, stated that the "Chief" ordered him into the last port collapsible loaded and lowered. This would have been D. Lightoller was extremely unlike to mis-identify Wilde for Murdoch, as other crewmembers may have done, as Wilde and Lightoller worked together every day.
Other than that, I agree with Inger - no reports that I recall of Wilde at either A or B. But I also agree it is likely he was working at one of them, and just wasn't recognized by anyone who survived.
Other than that, I agree with Inger - no reports that I recall of Wilde at either A or B. But I also agree it is likely he was working at one of them, and just wasn't recognized by anyone who survived.
T. Eric Brown
Member
The wave that may have killed Wilde (officially discarding my childhood theory) apparently was pretty devastating to the officer ranks. Wilde, Moody, and Murdoch have all been reported to have been washed overboard by a wave, either in testimony or by logical reasoning based on eyewitness reports. Inger, I've come across several posts here on ET that say they have found reports putting Wilde at the last two collapsibles. In this topic too I think. I'd like to be able to trace Captain Smith and the three ill-fated officers but information is pretty scarce. Do the Inquiry pages have a table of contents or something? That's no light reading or user friendly.
Inger Sheil
Member
There's a search engine on the Titanic Inquiry Site that might be helpful, Eric - also indexes of witnesses and days of testimony.
I'm virtually certain that no account placing Wilde at the last two collapsibles, A or B, has ever come to light (or at least been put in the public domain). People have, from time to time, stated that he was there - including individuals posting on this board - but I've never seen a single cite from a primary source.
I'm virtually certain that no account placing Wilde at the last two collapsibles, A or B, has ever come to light (or at least been put in the public domain). People have, from time to time, stated that he was there - including individuals posting on this board - but I've never seen a single cite from a primary source.
Tad G. Fitch
Member
Bill and Inger are absolutely right. I have never seen any reliable accounts placing Chief Officer Wilde at either Collapsibles A or B during the attempt to free them, but would be most interested if anyone has found any from reliable witnesses that place him there.
As already mentioned, the last confirmed sighting of Wilde seems to have been at Collapsible D by Second Officer Lightoller, when he refused the Chief's orders to leave in Collapsible D. It would certainly be reasonable to believe that Wilde remained in the forward area, assisting with the remaining two collapsible boats as much as possible, but there is no way to be certain. He could have run off to attend to something else entirely that we don't know about. So many of the people who were in that area of the ship did not survive, and most of those who did were not familiar enough with the officers to know who they were seeing.
I have seen but one reference (with a name of a witness still on the ship at the time attached to it) to Wilde having been washed overboard, but closer examination reveals it is not an actual account, but rather conjecture. Colonel Archibald Gracie makes a reference to Chief Officer Murdoch and Wilde having been washed overboard in his book:
"Clinch Smith and I got away from this point just before the water reached it and drowned Chief Officer Wilde and First Officer Murdoch, and others who were not successful in effecting a lodgment on the boat as it was swept off the deck."
At first glance, it may appear as if Colonel Gracie is saying that he saw this himself, but later on when addressing whether or not First Officer Murdoch committed suicide, he makes it plain that he did not actually see them washed overboard.
In a few other places in the book he mentions that he did not know the identity of the officers who were working nearby him, but learned of their identities afterwards from someone else. He does the same in his Senate testimony, as far as it relates to First Officer Murdoch. Perhaps his source was Second Officer Lightoller, who the Colonel says told him that he saw Murdoch at the falls right before the Boat Deck plunged under. However, Lightoller himself testified that the last time that he saw Chief Officer Wilde was some time before the sinking.
Here is one of the references that show Gracie did not know who was near Collapsible A until he was told about it afterwards:
"we crossed over to the starboard quarter of the ship, forward on the same Boat Deck where, as afterwards learned, the officer in command was First Officer Murdoch, who had also done noble work, and was soon thereafter to lose his life."
In the Senate Inquiry, Colonel Gracie again indicates that he did not see Murdoch for himself, and I do not recall him mentioning Chief Officer Wilde at all in his testimony:
"Officer Lightoller tells me that at the same time he was on the bridge deck, where I have marked it "L", and that the first officer, Murdoch, was about 15 feet away, where you see that boat near the davits there."
In addition to conjecture that he was washed overboard, Wilde has been mentioned as a possible "suspect" as the officer who may have shot himself, if anyone did, but there is no real evidence that makes him any more likely a candidate than the other officers who we know were on the scene. Jack Thayer heard crewmembers on Collapsible B asking "is the Chief aboard?", but he did not know whether they meant Wilde, Chief Engineer Bell, or Captain Smith.
Unfortunately, without new information being uncovered, we are unlikely to know for certain what happened to Chief Officer Wilde.
As already mentioned, the last confirmed sighting of Wilde seems to have been at Collapsible D by Second Officer Lightoller, when he refused the Chief's orders to leave in Collapsible D. It would certainly be reasonable to believe that Wilde remained in the forward area, assisting with the remaining two collapsible boats as much as possible, but there is no way to be certain. He could have run off to attend to something else entirely that we don't know about. So many of the people who were in that area of the ship did not survive, and most of those who did were not familiar enough with the officers to know who they were seeing.
I have seen but one reference (with a name of a witness still on the ship at the time attached to it) to Wilde having been washed overboard, but closer examination reveals it is not an actual account, but rather conjecture. Colonel Archibald Gracie makes a reference to Chief Officer Murdoch and Wilde having been washed overboard in his book:
"Clinch Smith and I got away from this point just before the water reached it and drowned Chief Officer Wilde and First Officer Murdoch, and others who were not successful in effecting a lodgment on the boat as it was swept off the deck."
At first glance, it may appear as if Colonel Gracie is saying that he saw this himself, but later on when addressing whether or not First Officer Murdoch committed suicide, he makes it plain that he did not actually see them washed overboard.
In a few other places in the book he mentions that he did not know the identity of the officers who were working nearby him, but learned of their identities afterwards from someone else. He does the same in his Senate testimony, as far as it relates to First Officer Murdoch. Perhaps his source was Second Officer Lightoller, who the Colonel says told him that he saw Murdoch at the falls right before the Boat Deck plunged under. However, Lightoller himself testified that the last time that he saw Chief Officer Wilde was some time before the sinking.
Here is one of the references that show Gracie did not know who was near Collapsible A until he was told about it afterwards:
"we crossed over to the starboard quarter of the ship, forward on the same Boat Deck where, as afterwards learned, the officer in command was First Officer Murdoch, who had also done noble work, and was soon thereafter to lose his life."
In the Senate Inquiry, Colonel Gracie again indicates that he did not see Murdoch for himself, and I do not recall him mentioning Chief Officer Wilde at all in his testimony:
"Officer Lightoller tells me that at the same time he was on the bridge deck, where I have marked it "L", and that the first officer, Murdoch, was about 15 feet away, where you see that boat near the davits there."
In addition to conjecture that he was washed overboard, Wilde has been mentioned as a possible "suspect" as the officer who may have shot himself, if anyone did, but there is no real evidence that makes him any more likely a candidate than the other officers who we know were on the scene. Jack Thayer heard crewmembers on Collapsible B asking "is the Chief aboard?", but he did not know whether they meant Wilde, Chief Engineer Bell, or Captain Smith.
Unfortunately, without new information being uncovered, we are unlikely to know for certain what happened to Chief Officer Wilde.
T. Eric Brown
Member
Oi! There's all this damned misinformation! Geez, why can't everyone say, "He was here."? *sigh*, it's never that easy.
Wilde's life was not exactly going his way at that point in time. How long had it been since his wife died? There are suicide stories in almost every tragedy. Some of them have real merit to them, others do not. The way I see it is: Why waste the bullet? Death's right there, referring to the rapidly rising water. Of course, I've heard many psycologists in interviews saying that stuff like that is a method of defiance. These people wanted some sort of control over their own fate. So that's one possibility. The wave theory has the most eyewitness reports surrounding it. If that's the case then it also seems logical for him to be at the bow, with Moody and possibly Murdoch. And of course Smith was somewhere in that area, so perhaps they all died together. But fate's rarely that poetic.
Wilde's life was not exactly going his way at that point in time. How long had it been since his wife died? There are suicide stories in almost every tragedy. Some of them have real merit to them, others do not. The way I see it is: Why waste the bullet? Death's right there, referring to the rapidly rising water. Of course, I've heard many psycologists in interviews saying that stuff like that is a method of defiance. These people wanted some sort of control over their own fate. So that's one possibility. The wave theory has the most eyewitness reports surrounding it. If that's the case then it also seems logical for him to be at the bow, with Moody and possibly Murdoch. And of course Smith was somewhere in that area, so perhaps they all died together. But fate's rarely that poetic.
Inger Sheil
Member
Here's a bio of Wilde I wrote a little while back that will give you an overview of the little that is known about his personal life (I do need to tweak it and add some more information to it, but the basics are there):
http://www.nautical-papers.com/onwatch/wilde/wilde.html
His wife died on 24 December 1910 from complications arising from the birth of their twin boys (who also died, soon after they were born).
There has been much discussion in other threads on the board as to Wilde and the other officers as suicide candidates - while there is some evidence indicating how profoundly affected Wilde was by his wife's death.
I don't know if it would be poetic for them all to meet a similar end at the forward end of the boat deck, but there would be a certain logic as this was where the last of the boats were - as launching them was just about the last practical task that could still be accomplished, it would make sense to me if they were gathered in that area.
http://www.nautical-papers.com/onwatch/wilde/wilde.html
His wife died on 24 December 1910 from complications arising from the birth of their twin boys (who also died, soon after they were born).
There has been much discussion in other threads on the board as to Wilde and the other officers as suicide candidates - while there is some evidence indicating how profoundly affected Wilde was by his wife's death.
I don't know if it would be poetic for them all to meet a similar end at the forward end of the boat deck, but there would be a certain logic as this was where the last of the boats were - as launching them was just about the last practical task that could still be accomplished, it would make sense to me if they were gathered in that area.
First let me say I'm not one o the big researchers and have never had time to read too much on Titanic, I mean in-depth like experts on here - so that's the expectations to view what I'm saying ...........................
I had heard much about Lightoller and some others but never on Wilde > how nice it was to have some spotlight on Wilde in this new "Letter" article in the new articles (it did me an Email prompt so I'd flip over and read that) ........ and in the middle was a report on Wilde, and here I'm thinking Who? he had just gone by me in the books and movies, and I never actually did what I just did today : > went to top menu, hit People, hit Crew, hit Deck Officers, and saw about Chief Officer Wilde.
made me wonder, when I read he had an 'extra masters license' : what the heck is that?? he could master in emergencies but it's not a 'real' masters license? And I read for the first time he'd been up for master of a White Star liner but circumstances delayed it ....... then that part he was last seen smoking and wondering if the water would put it out before He Could! aack
anyway, I'll read more on him, I hadnt even seen the discuss forum thread folder on him til now! *:sheepishlyduckingdownsmilie
Question: on many ships I believe 1st officer does duties of this chief officer ........... so, what's a chief officer? what is his difference in duties from 1st officer, and why have both? (I'm such a newbie with Brit merchant marine)
Anyway, I hope that new Letter article with mention of Wilde brings him more in view to other readers who missed him as I did.
R
I had heard much about Lightoller and some others but never on Wilde > how nice it was to have some spotlight on Wilde in this new "Letter" article in the new articles (it did me an Email prompt so I'd flip over and read that) ........ and in the middle was a report on Wilde, and here I'm thinking Who? he had just gone by me in the books and movies, and I never actually did what I just did today : > went to top menu, hit People, hit Crew, hit Deck Officers, and saw about Chief Officer Wilde.
made me wonder, when I read he had an 'extra masters license' : what the heck is that?? he could master in emergencies but it's not a 'real' masters license? And I read for the first time he'd been up for master of a White Star liner but circumstances delayed it ....... then that part he was last seen smoking and wondering if the water would put it out before He Could! aack
anyway, I'll read more on him, I hadnt even seen the discuss forum thread folder on him til now! *:sheepishlyduckingdownsmilie
Question: on many ships I believe 1st officer does duties of this chief officer ........... so, what's a chief officer? what is his difference in duties from 1st officer, and why have both? (I'm such a newbie with Brit merchant marine)
Anyway, I hope that new Letter article with mention of Wilde brings him more in view to other readers who missed him as I did.
R
Tad G. Fitch
Member
Hi Rob, how are you? Wilde has often been overlooked in past research, although that is changing. Contrary to popular belief, Chief Officer Wilde was actually quite active during the sinking. Bill Wormstedt, George Behe and I attempted to chart the movements of both the other officers and him from boat to boat as part of our research into the lifeboat launch sequence. You can find the article at this address:
http://home.comcast.net/~bwormst/titanic/lifeboats/lifeboats.htm
Also, Inger Sheil wrote an excellent article on Chief Officer Wilde for the following website. Her article will offer much more regarding what Wilde's actual duties were, and regarding his background. There is great information available there on the other officers as well.
http://www.nautical-papers.com/onwatch/wilde/wilde.html
The following link will also take you to a great article on Wilde (the website itself is excellent as well, and well worth checking out!)
http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic's chief officer henry wilde.shtml
Hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Tad
http://home.comcast.net/~bwormst/titanic/lifeboats/lifeboats.htm
Also, Inger Sheil wrote an excellent article on Chief Officer Wilde for the following website. Her article will offer much more regarding what Wilde's actual duties were, and regarding his background. There is great information available there on the other officers as well.
http://www.nautical-papers.com/onwatch/wilde/wilde.html
The following link will also take you to a great article on Wilde (the website itself is excellent as well, and well worth checking out!)
http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic's chief officer henry wilde.shtml
Hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Tad
Inger Sheil
Member
Thanks for the nod for On Watch, Tad - although I went and reviewed the page and winced at a few of my typos and some of the more awkward writing. I really do need to update that! I have a bit more information on Wilde and his family that should probably go up as well.
Rob, the Extra-Master certification was in addition to the Master's certification. All the Titanic's deck officers held BoT tickets up to Master, and several - Wilde, Murdoch, Lightoller and Boxhall - had the higher qualification of Extra-Master.
Different lines used different ranking systems - while the WSL used Chief Officer - 1st Officer - 2nd Officer on down, others went 1st - 2nd etc, and still others went Chief - 2nd - 3rd and so on. Cunard evolved another system as well - Staff Captain, Chief Officer, First Officer, Second Officer, Senior Third Officer, Junior Third Officer. Dending on the System used, the most senior deck officer might be called either Chief Officer or 1st Officer.
Rob, the Extra-Master certification was in addition to the Master's certification. All the Titanic's deck officers held BoT tickets up to Master, and several - Wilde, Murdoch, Lightoller and Boxhall - had the higher qualification of Extra-Master.
Different lines used different ranking systems - while the WSL used Chief Officer - 1st Officer - 2nd Officer on down, others went 1st - 2nd etc, and still others went Chief - 2nd - 3rd and so on. Cunard evolved another system as well - Staff Captain, Chief Officer, First Officer, Second Officer, Senior Third Officer, Junior Third Officer. Dending on the System used, the most senior deck officer might be called either Chief Officer or 1st Officer.
T. Eric Brown
Member
That was very interesting, thanks.
hi,
im not sure if this is a good thread. i am new to this. but did chief officer wilde commit suicide for real? because my friend who is starting a skit of the titanic said that he will make the actor of chief officer wilde shoot himself. i really want to know so he can change that part. if anyone has info on that, plz let me know. thanks
Andrew
im not sure if this is a good thread. i am new to this. but did chief officer wilde commit suicide for real? because my friend who is starting a skit of the titanic said that he will make the actor of chief officer wilde shoot himself. i really want to know so he can change that part. if anyone has info on that, plz let me know. thanks
Andrew
