Factors That Could Have Prevented Sinking

A transverse W.T. bulkhead in a couple of well chosen spots may very well have saved the ship, although I agree that throughout the ship would've made her very user unfriendly. At least as high as the main deck at least as far aft as the superstructure, and perhaps between BR 6 and 5. If you look at most shipping accidents, it seems the bow is involved somewhere, be it grounding or ramming. Don't ever recall hearing of a stern to stern ramming, although it can't be ruled out. Flipping back to steerage for a second, there were indeed advocates for the poor, but they were either more upscale persons, or radical reformers. It was a time of great social change and upheval; the Great War (WWI to us yanks) was just over two years away, and while competition was fierce for steerage passengers, for that was where the profit was, there were always more to be had. Replace the name Guggenheim with Gates, and you'll see where the real umbrage was, and why reform had to come. We have the same situation today here in California. If an illegal Mexican national is picked up by the INS, or perishes trying to cross in, it is a tragedy at some level, but there is another soul to replace that person without skipping a heartbeat. Would that it were not so.
 
From what I understand, it would have taken about 2 minutes to have reversed the engines. Even if the command was given, it was not carried out.
It seems most likely that Murdoch simply sent a stop command to the engine rooms.

Brent
 
>>A transverse W.T. bulkhead in a couple of well chosen spots may very well have saved the ship,<<

Errrrrrr....the bulkheads on the Titanic were transverse bulkheads. You may be thinking of longitudinal bulkheads and whether or not they would have made a signifigent differnce is a very questionable proposition. They might have prevented penetration into the inner hull, but the consequence comes by way of assymetric flooding problems which translates into a potentially dangerous list to starboard.

>>Flipping back to steerage for a second, there were indeed advocates for the poor, but they were either more upscale persons, or radical reformers.<<

Yeeeessssss...so what?

You're assertion was that "Nobody cared about the steerage passengers." This simply isn't true. The motions for reform were already well in the air and not just from the well-to-do. Labour unions were very much a popular grass roots movement which was gaining in power, and without the help of the wealthy.

As to "illegal Mexicans" as one of the moderators who would have to pick up the pieces of the inevitable flame war that would follow, I would ask that you please keep modern day politics out of the forum. The old politics of the time are dicey enough as it is.
 
"What mistake? The only person who said anything about engines being reversed was Boxhall, and everybody accepted what he said without challenge. Yet, there is NO supporting evidence that Murdoch did that. There is supporting evidence that the order was STOP. In any case, from a wealth of evidence, the engines did stop until after the collision took place." QUOTE




Interesting points Samuel- perhaps the order to reverse the engines is just one of many myths of what happened that night..
Another common myth being Capt smith assembled all the senior officers on the bridge to inform them Titanic was sinking- there is not one shred of evidence to suggest such a meeting occoured.
 
>>Interesting points Michael<<

That was Samuel who said that.
wink.gif
 
Will, your view of the 3rd Class passengers on the Titanic seems to be influenced mainly by the situation of traditional steerage in the 19th century. Things had moved on by 1912. The flood of immigration was still in force, but by then British shipping lines faced strong competition from the Germans (and from one another) and were well aware of the need to attract 3rd Class passengers in an increasingly competitive market. Check out their advertising and promotional brochures. And the consequencies to any crew member of failing to deliver what was promised - ie failing to take good care of the passengers in his charge. Check out also the British and American Shipping Acts to see the large body of regulations in place to protect the interests of immigrant passengers.

Also in 1912, the working man no longer needed to rely on the efforts of a few liberally-minded reformers among his 'betters' to advance his cause. Socialism has become a political force to be reckoned with in the UK. Organised Trade Unions were active in most areas of employment, and the established order was shaken by major industrial disputes. The Labour Party, which represented the interests of Trade Unions and the working class majority of the population, was well established in Parliament and only 12 years away from becoming the Party of Government. Already in 1912 the ruling Liberal Party relied on the support of the Labour Party (and of the Irish Nationalists) and could not afford to ignore their aims.

"Nobody cared about the steerage passengers" is a fine emotive phrase, but needs to be clarified in detail. And is it your opinion that if the Titanic had carried only 3rd Class passengers there would have been no charges to answer, no inquiries, no calls for change?
.
 
There could not have been a Stop order sent to all engines prior to the accident. Had this been the case, Olliver could not have see it done as his entry onto the bridge was essentially during the accident.

Also, we have the problem of so many people thinking that the big event of the moment was taking place at the stern of the ship and not the bow. At various times on this forum David Haisman has spoken of his mother's recollections. The official testimonies of stewards Crowe, Ward, and Johnson leave no doubt that there was something going on in the stern and not the bow.

A "crash back" on both reciprocating engines would not have gone unnoticed in the third and second class quarters aft of the turbine engine room. Ask any sailor who has been on a ship that reversed all engines in an emergency to describe that event. It is nothing like what happened on Titanic.

This is why I suggest (based on research by Captain Erik Wood) that Murdoch reversed only the starboard reciprocating engine. That action would have been logical from a damage control point of view, and would have resulted in the lower vibration and noise reported by survivors of the accident.

In addition, there is evidence that the All Stop order witnessed by Olliver was sent on both the regular and the emergency telegraphs. This strongly suggests two individuals acted on the same impulse simultaneously once the berg was astern the odd combination of Ahead Full on port and Astern Full on starboard was no longer a good idea. It is not unlikely that both Murdoch and Captain Smith sprang to telegraphs to shut down the props after the collision.

-- David G. Brown
 
Alas, I can't spend the time tonight on the dampers questions. My simple answer is that the dampers were shut in time with the stopping of the engines. And, that came within 20 to 25 seconds of when Titanic broke free of the ice. Some of the watertight doors would still have been closing at the time. To most people, the shutting of the dampers would have appeared simultaneous with the accident.

-- David G. Brown
 
Dave: Olliver was quite clear that the only order he saw given on the telegraph was ahead half by Smith. He never saw an order for reverse while he was on the bridge, and he also never saw an order for stop being given. When he was asked by Burton if he saw the Captain ring down stop, his response was really a question, “To stop?” not an affirming statement as some believe it to be because the transcript did not include a question mark in his response. You can see this was so within the context of what they were talking about which was Smith’s ordering for 1/2 ahead at some point.

There is absolutely zero evidence of a reversal of just the starboard engine. Furthermore, such an action would make no sense with the object fine on your starboard bow. If split engine orders were given, and there is no evidence to that effect, it would have been the port engine in reverse, not the starboard. We can see this by the actions that others said they might have taken if faced with a similar situation. Reversing the port engine would have tightened a turn to port, assuming that was Murdoch’s intent.

The real point here is that both engines continued ahead for a short time during and after the collision as seen by two eye witnesses down in the engine rooms, Dillon and Scott. They were already in the process of closing the dampers according to Barrett when the crash came, and according to Dillon, who was in the engine room, the telegraph bell rang just seconds before the crash, which correlates well with Barrett.


The testimonies of stewards Crowe, Ward, and Johnson in no way localized anything that can be used to suggest a stopping or reversal of one or both props. They simply were describing their impression of what the accident felt like to them which in Crowe’s words was, “a kind of shaking of the ship and a little impact” from which he thought that they dropped a prop. These folks found out a little later that the ship struck ice. Spencer Silverthorne, who was in the 1st class smoking room when the accident happened, had remarked to a friend that crossed the Atlantic with him on the Olympic when she lost a propeller blade that it must have happened again. But he ran out through the palm court just in time to see an iceberg pass aft on the starboard side. Even Lightoller's initial thought was that the blades of a prop were stripped off, and he was in his cabin up front in the officer’s quarters.
 
Many years ago I married a farmer's daughter. My new father-in-law took me down a dirt road in a classic Chevy pickup. Over against the tree line he pointed out a clump of animals. "Thirty-nine head," he said, "that one heifer must be down by the creek again." I saw a clump of animals, he saw individual cattle and even noted one was missing. Weeks later, he came to visit me on Lake Erie and we went sailing. "See the buoy?" I asked. Our boat was no farther from the buoy than the herd of cattle had been from the pickup truck. Yet, he could not pick out the shape of the floating aid to navigation. From these two incidents I learned the importance of our individual personal backgrounds when it comes to what we each perceive in what we see.

This is the context in which I view Sam's comments. We see the same things, but perceive them quite differently. What I perceive is that the usual and customary interpretation of the testimonies adds up to an impossible accident. So, to me, the canonical interpretation must be incorrect. The result is the theory that I have proposed.

From the outset, I do not claim to have God's eye when it comes to seeing nearly a century into the past. Some of Sam's individual criticisms of my theory are valid. My theory has its difficulties and weak points. But, I believe it is a lot closer to what really happened than the claptrap we have been fed by the likes of Senator Smith and Lord Mersey.

The traditional story of using hard-over rudder in conjunction with reversing the engines is absurd. The conventional accident description of the ship sideswiping its bow in a left turn and not damaging the rest of its length is impossible. I fail to see why anyone is interested in continuing to defend an such a bizarre interpretation of events.

To me, the biggest mistake that has been made in Titanic research is the canonical assumption that Murdoch's actions were intended to avoid the iceberg. My approach is built on the concept that when Murdoch finally perceived Titanic was "in extremis" with the iceberg, he was bright enough to realize that no maneuver of any sort--turning or stopping--would prevent impact. Instead of trying to avoid the berg, the underlying context of my theory is that Murdoch deliberately intended to take it as nearly bow-on as possible and all of his efforts with engine orders and steering commands were for the sole purpose of mitigating damage.

Murdoch never tried to dodge the iceberg. He tried to reduce the damage the ship was about to absorb. That’s my view of his events.

Because I do not believe Murdoch tried to avoid the berg, I have to say that Sam is totally incorrect in his assessment of reversing the starboard engine for an object fine on the starboard bow at short range. That was Murdoch's only choice of engine command to achieve his true goal of mitigating damage. Given the time available, he knew the starboard engine could not be reversed prior to impact. But, he also knew he had to do something to protect that starboard propeller and shaft from ice damage. Stopping would limit damage, and reversing would possibly put enough moving water into the equation to prevent ice-to-blade contact.

From my point of view, the choice of reversing the starboard engine with less than 45 seconds to impact would have been seamanship bordering on brilliant. I say this because it takes into full account the time lag between issuing engine orders at sea and the response of the engineers. If Murdoch did what I suggest, he took what is normally considered a disadvantage--the lag time--and used it to his advantage. He maintained maximum steerage during the approach. Once the ship got to the berg, the engine was stopping or reversing, so he gained sideways movement of the stern away from danger.

However, the opposite action of reversing the port engine, if accomplished quickly enough might well have exposed the whole of the starboard side to the iceberg. It is really an insult to Murdoch to suggest that he sought to combine a steering maneuver with stopping or reversing all engines in conjunction with an emergency helm order. He knew better. Murdoch knew that reversing the engines would reduce the effectiveness of Titanic’s rudder. And, irrespective of engine orders, the "hard a-starboard" order in the canon would have been almost suicidal. Murdoch had more than sufficient experience to know the result would certainly have been ice damage along the full length of the starboard side.

As to the topic of crew assuming that Titanic had lost a propeller blade, QED my argument that something odd took place at the stern in conjunction with the accident.

Those who thought about propeller problems were well aware they were sensing something from the back of the bus, not the front. Propellers are at the back. The ship did not lose a blade. What did happen to give so many different people the sense of an event "back there" instead of in the bow? It really does not matter why they thought about a propeller blade (the Olympic incident), the fact that so many people looked toward the wrong end of the ship is proof enough that something was going on back there. Not one of those persons would have conjured up an image of Olympic if all of the noise, rumbling, or mayhem had been confined to the bow.

Down in the engine room there were no survivors who actually operated the controls. We do not have a copy of the bell book. Instead, we must rely on untrained coal handlers for their opinions of equipment they did not know how to operate. This does not mean those men should be ignored, just that their testimonies must be considered as subject to their own ignorance. In the end, however, I believe that what they saw during the roughly 60 seconds surrounding the accident was pretty much what they described. The telegraph bell did ring before impact. The engines were running and did not stop until afterward.

As I have stated, I do not have a bullet-proof argument to replace canon. What I have is an overall interpretation of the available testimony that better fits reality. Undoubtedly I've miscued on an individual point or two, but my theory puts damage where it occurred and does it in a way consistent with the way real ships maneuver in real water. Plus, it follows standard shiphandling practice. Perfect? No! Just my attempt to come a bit closer to the truth.

Now, to end where this began, how did my father-in-law count the animals in his herd. Of course, he counted feet and divided by four, which is the way you count Olympic class ships. You count the funnels...

-- David G. Brown
 
David-Just a bit of speculative thought; could there have been a shudder in the turbine? Something that size has a goodly amount of rotational torque, and since it was new, and tight, not "rattley", a momentary drop in steam pressure might've done it. No evidence for this of course, but a lot of little things get missed in moments of stress, and with no eyewitness survivors....
 
Although someone like Dillon may not have been an engineer, he had two eyes and two ears. He described what he heard and what he saw. Sorry if what he said happened doesn't fit with your theory. Both engines ran on ahead for some time following the collision. They then came to a stop and then reversed slowly for a brief period. Some time later they were seen to go ahead again slowly for a short time before coming to a stop again. There was no description of one engine stopping or reversing while the other was going ahead. The description of engines stopping a minute or two following the collision is supported by several passengers and crew alike, including the backing of the engines following the initial stopping.

I would not be so fast to rule out an initial order for starboard helm followed by an order for port helm once the berg passed the ship's pivot point, even if it was apparent from the start that some contact was inevitable. The object would be to minimize impending damage by presenting a broad contact area to the target instead of a narrow area. If that is what he did, then it almost worked except that the relatively little damage that did result was unfortunately spread across too many compartments.
 
Back
Top