How much of a difference would it have made?

I was reading some general facts about the size of the SS Californian today and it got me thinking. Hypothetically speaking, let’s say the Californian did respond to the Titanic’s distress signals in a timely manner. How much of a difference would it have made? It only had a capacity of 102 people total, and there were over 1500 people who perished that night. I mean I guess they could haul some of the people in lifeboats on board but then what? They wouldn’t have had enough space for everyone safely, at least from what I can tell. What are your thoughts?

As I previously posted here some years ago, even in bad weather, civilian merchant ships have successfully effected the manoeuvre of coming alongside and rescuing people directly from a ship that was heavily damaged and taking on water. Indeed, it happened once barely more than two years after Titanic was lost:

On October 26th, 1914 the French steamer "Amiral Ganteaume" struck a mine off Boulogne and began to sink by the bows in rough weather. The cross-channel steamer "The Queen" approached her, to see a swelling mass of the 2,200 refugees from the war that the "Amiral Ganteaume" was carrying on decks... The Amiral was launching her boats, but the first one capsized as it reached the water. "The Queen" prepared to launch her own boats, but in the rough seas and with thousands on deck, it was clearly impossible to rescue any number of persons in time with boats, Captain Carey of "The Queen" brought her alongside with careful manoeuvring and succeeded in rescuing all the passengers aboard the Amiral; the crew stayed aboard to fight their ship, and of the passengers aboard the Amiral, thirty were killed by crushing or drowning during the transfer. "The Queen" then made port badly overloaded with 2,500 souls aboard.

This is a real world example of a Captain bringing his ship alongside a sinking vessel and effecting a rescue of thousands of civilians in perilous conditions, but I can find very little on the details of the operation, other than the thirty fatalities that resulted. In particular, it would be interesting and important to know how long the rescue operation took, how long the "Amiral Ganteaume" remained afloat after "The Queen" departed, and finally what condition the Amiral was in when "The Queen" first approached, for Captain Carey, who was made MBE for the feat, to have decided it was safe enough to risk. This all, of course, factors into considering whether or not a rescue was really possible on that fateful night two and a half years before.


As well as a link with more information that Dave Gittins provided on the incident:

Captain Carey, the Queen and World War I shipping in the Channel.
 
That's still only about 800 people in the lifeboats, leaving around 1400 people still on board the sinking Titanic. What next? You tell me.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Arun!

Going along with your hypothetical best-case scenario, if the boats are already in the water, that means she would have had a head start rowing to the Californian. So how long would it take for them to cover the remaining distance, haul everyone onboard, and then head back to the Titanic? Would it be time enough to take on another round of people from the ship?

Even if the answer is no and the ship flounders even before the the initial round of survivors can be loaded onto the Californian from the lifeboats, surely more people can be saved from the water? I believe those who ended up in the water that night had around 20–30 mins before they froze of hypothermia. As soon as the first lifeboats unloaded their human cargo onto the Californian they could have rowed back to pull some people from the water, no? They might not have been able to save everyone, but if even one less person would have died that night, wouldn't that count for something?
 
I was speaking of an ideal, best-case, everything (after the accident) going your way scenario, whch seldom happens in real life. But since I started it, I'll give my halfpenny worth. Even if the Californian had got close to the sinking Titanic by about 01:40 am, it would certainly have had no time to stop and pick-up people already in lifeboats all around beause that would have been a carefully co-ordinated operation that took time. At the same time, I don't think the Californian could have got too close to the by then steadily sinking Titanic and so the best it coud have done was to lower its own lifeboats and pick people from the water. Although the Californian had 4 lifeboats, I believe by the time they prepared and lowered them, the Titanic woud have been very close to the final plunge and so potentially they could only have helped some of those on the water. Hauling people from the sea and into lifeboats among the screaming hundreds around would have been difficult and dangerous and IMO even under the hypothetical best-case scenario the Californian could perhaps saved 60 or 70 more people.
 
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You be lucky to survive for no more than 10 minutes in the frizzing cold water. If you were to recover a person with soaking wet cloths probably double in weight. Where do you dry their cloths.
The peoples who came up with this bright ideas to recover all, were legal men Lawyers and Barristers who clearly where NOT marine experts by a country mile. But as been in charge of the inquiry the well educated and the elite of society, you were in no position to question them!
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Arun!

Going along with your hypothetical best-case scenario, if the boats are already in the water, that means she would have had a head start rowing to the Californian. So how long would it take for them to cover the remaining distance, haul everyone onboard, and then head back to the Titanic? Would it be time enough to take on another round of people from the ship?

Even if the answer is no and the ship flounders even before the the initial round of survivors can be loaded onto the Californian from the lifeboats, surely more people can be saved from the water? I believe those who ended up in the water that night had around 20–30 mins before they froze of hypothermia. As soon as the first lifeboats unloaded their human cargo onto the Californian they could have rowed back to pull some people from the water, no? They might not have been able to save everyone, but if even one less person would have died that night, wouldn't that count for something?
Yes it would have counted for something. Especially for the one or two that were saved. As Arun, Michael and others have pointed out it would have changed the story of Titanic dramatically. As in there would be no Californian controversy. She would have been a hero ship instead of a villain one. Just a wild guess but I would say if the Californian argument didn't exist probably Titanic would have lost half it's followers over the many years. If there was no Captain Lord to beat up on the whole Lordite / anti Lordite community would have moved on to something else. Cheers.
 
I was speaking of an ideal, best-case, everything (after the accident) going your way scenario, whch seldom happens in real life. But since I started it, I'll give my halfpenny worth. Even if the Californian had got close to the sinking Titanic by about 01:40 am, it would certainly have had no time to stop and pick-up people already in lifeboats all around beause that would have been a carefully co-ordinated operation that took time. At the same time, I don't think the Californian could have got too close to the by then steadily sinking Titanic and so the best it coud have done was to lower its own lifeboats and pick people from the water. Although the Californian had 4 lifeboats, I believe by the time they prepared and lowered them, the Titanic woud have been very close to the final plunge and so potentially they could only have helped some of those on the water. Hauling people from the sea and into lifeboats among the screaming hundreds around would have been difficult and dangerous and IMO even under the hypothetical best-case scenario the Californian could perhaps saved 60 or 70 more people.

I respectfully disagree. The Amiral Ganteaume was a steamer of 4,560 tons, the Queen was a steamer of 1,676 tons gross, so the difference in size was of the same order of magnitude as it was between Titanic and Californian, which is more relevant than the larger absolute sizes of the later ships. The Queen was indeed a triple-screw ship, but she had a central high pressure turbine discharging to two outside low pressure turbines which means that she could not use her screws for maneuvering, so Captain Carey had no advantage in maneuvering that Captain Lord would have lacked with the single screw Californian. Captain Carey's feat was executed in bad weather, and yet nonetheless he held close enough to the Amiral Ganteaume that only thirty people were killed outright in the transfer, and 2,000 people were taken off alive.

"Rafting" is unnecessary. The Queen never once passed a line to the Amiral Ganteaume. She stood close enough with her engines at the ready and constant small low-speed uses of the screws serving to keep the two ships in very close proximity, while she hung in the lee of the larger ship. In the dead calm by which Titanic was sinking, Captain Lord, who I do not and will never dispute was a very intelligent and highly skilled mariner, could have held his ship close in without difficulty. The idea that he would be hazarding his ship by doing this is ridiculous. Countless steamers in the 19th and early 20th centuries rammed each other, by accident and intentionally in war, and not once was the ramming ship ever dragged under by suction from the sinking ship, even when much larger. Suction just physically does not generate that much force and it would have been known even to a mariner--especially an educated and talented mariner--of the period. If a ship damaged in a collision at the bows has not been hazarded by the sinking of the vessel she struck in close proximity, than the Californian, standing by with her crew all at stations, pumps ready for emergencies and engines at the ready, would not have been hazarded. She simply would not have been hazarded.

The debate about exactly how close the Californian was and how quickly she would have reached Titanic if she had responded to the rockets or had her wireless ready or otherwise seen a signal is immaterial to this thread. The point is that Captain Lord could have safely and successfully lain his ship alongside Titanic and hundreds of people would have survived the jump. Yes, Captain Carey got the MBE for a reason. It was a feat, and it might not have gone so flawlessly for Lord and his crew. But if there was anyone on that night who could have done the same for Titanic, it would have been Captain Lord.
 
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OK, mitfrc I respect your views on this; I noted that you are an engineer with a Masters' qualification in Hydrodynamics Stability (so I can foresee some interesting technical discussions with Sam Halpern!) and so know what you are talking about. But we have to consider the actual, real-life situation of how much difference the Californian could have made with the Titanic passengers and crew if the Leyland liner had responded immediately. Others have posted before that it could not have made a great difference; certainly some more lives saved, but there still would have been around 1400 deaths.

In the hypothetical "best case" scenario that I mentioned in reponse to the OP above, I had crews of both the Titanic and Californian acting with optimal efficiency and with full cooperation of passengers. We know that did not happen and so to be more realistic and to look at it from the Californian's perspective, we have to assume that things progressed on the Titanic exactly the same way that they actually did that night while all those on the Californian - Stone, Evans, Captain Lord etc - were much more pro-active. But given that ship's stopped position, distance from the sinking Titanic, icy conditions and best known performance, how long do you think it would have taken the Californian to get close to the Titanic? I personally don't believe that they could have made it before 1:40am, if that; and since we know what was happening at that time on and around the sinking Titanic, what do you believe that Captain Lord and his crew should/could have done?
 
This has been discuss many times over the years. Those are new to ET its well worth reading the pass threads on this subject.
So where did the idea that the Californian could of rescued all come from? From lawyers in charge of the British inquiry. Lord Mersey in some up on his findings.
That Captain Lord could have pushed through the ice to open water without any serious risk, and so have come to the assistance of Titanic. Had she done so she might have many, if not all of the lives that were lost. Yet this great rescue plan was never discuss in the inquiry. As one can imagine captain Lord must of be dumstruck to hear this outrageous statement coming from a NON marine expert indeed. Yet try as did he was deny of any rehearing to tell his side of the story of this practical impossible mission task.
This great rescue plan has been discuss many times in the past with marine experts to show the serious pit falls of such an ambitious plan.
 
OK, mitfrc I respect your views on this; I noted that you are an engineer with a Masters' qualification in Hydrodynamics Stability (so I can foresee some interesting technical discussions with Sam Halpern!) and so know what you are talking about. But we have to consider the actual, real-life situation of how much difference the Californian could have made with the Titanic passengers and crew if the Leyland liner had responded immediately. Others have posted before that it could not have made a great difference; certainly some more lives saved, but there still would have been around 1400 deaths.

In the hypothetical "best case" scenario that I mentioned in reponse to the OP above, I had crews of both the Titanic and Californian acting with optimal efficiency and with full cooperation of passengers. We know that did not happen and so to be more realistic and to look at it from the Californian's perspective, we have to assume that things progressed on the Titanic exactly the same way that they actually did that night while all those on the Californian - Stone, Evans, Captain Lord etc - were much more pro-active. But given that ship's stopped position, distance from the sinking Titanic, icy conditions and best known performance, how long do you think it would have taken the Californian to get close to the Titanic? I personally don't believe that they could have made it before 1:40am, if that; and since we know what was happening at that time on and around the sinking Titanic, what do you believe that Captain Lord and his crew should/could have done?
I also have experience working in Process Safety Management including training as an interim incident commander (the person who leads the fightback before the designated IC arrives) in the FEMA incident command system. I’ll share my LinkedIn privately on request.

Answering the question of how long it takes to get to Titanic is highly contentious and not the subject of this thread. We will assume 0140.

Arriving at 0140, they are confronted with a problem. Their lights will show the ship is obviously in a severe sinking position. Captain Lord is now confronted with the problem that if he puts his lifeboats over the side, they will be totally inadequate at taking passengers off the wreck. We assume Captain Lord is in fact capable of recognising this as Captain Carey did, so the decision is made to lay alongside.

The boats would have previously been swung out; he’ll need to swing them back in as he approaches for this operation. Traveling at very low speed and issuing a series of helm orders to basically refuse the bow to “Titanic” while creeping in, the ships will almost certainly touch several times during this operation; “Californian” can keep herself safe a bit better by perhaps swinging the cargo booms out to the side on her masts to keep her from touching at very low speed. However, momentum is a law more ironclad than any other.

Laying alongside will take time and she will not have much left. At least ten minutes of careful low speed manoeuvring. At 0150 hrs Californian would be drifting, her engines stopped, a foot or two from Titanic. She’d begin to move immediately.

Young men will probably jump first. There were plenty of lifeboat jumpers. A lot of the distances will be such that they will be uninjured. Californian’s crew will probably spread tarpaulins, baling, mattresses and other things but the time means many men will be relying on luck.

Every so often one will go in the water and drown. Another will slam into the bulwark on Californian and bounce off into the water, dead instantly. If the ships shift closer together another will be crushed. The panic is well on them now, people will keep jumping anyway.

The ships will inevitably begin to separate. Lord will have to use plentiful experience as a seaman to put on exactly just enough power to draw them back together, without touching. The still night makes it like manoeuvring in a docking basin, Californian’s crew will doubtless recall later. The groans of despair when she was swinging out will give way to another desperate round of jumping. Many men will break their legs, some will be crippled for life.

Californian’s crew will organize on the decks, with passengers and crew from Titanic who have made it over uninjured. They’ll plead for the women to jump. Some will start jumping. Others will throw their children.

The ships will start to drift apart again, helm and rudder orders will bring them back together. A huge surge of humanity will now press to the rail, possibly impacting Titanic’s stability in the late phases of the sinking. A few minutes of frantic masses of people simply flinging themselves heedlessly over the side will ensue.

Some who go in the water will be hauled out on lines, but just one or two here and there.

There might be time for a fourth iteration, each lasting only a few minutes. The the breakup begins, Titanic’s lights go out. Captain Lord and his crew will see it clearly and he will briefly order astern engines to back off lest the stern swing out violently in capsize toward him. The across the deck transfers are over. Halting at about pistol shot they will watch Titanic’s final plunge as the boats are swung out again.

By the time Californian’s boats are lowered and sent into the crowd it will be thin enough for the boathooks to fend off the mass. A reasonable number of strong swimmers will just set out for Californian. Some will successfully be hauled aboard. Another 60 or 70 will be taken in by the boats. They will then return to search for the few remaining survivors in the water and recover a few more; they will also recover the survivors clinging to the two swamped collapsibles. Titanic’s boats will begin to converge on Californian.

On her decks the crew tries to care for hundreds of survivors, orphaned and separated children, dozens with broken bones from injuries during the jump.

No clear breakdown of who jumped and who was in the boats will ever be completed; when the final tally is made there are approximately 1300 survivors and approximately 900 people went to the bottom that night.
 
You have to consider how long will it take for the Californian to arrival with Titanic. Lord Mersey idea to push through the ice if was not a problem at 11 knots. Which is impossible. The drag on the ship will at all chance cut your speed down to 5 knots, let alone putting the ship in danger of be damage to. Mersey has got in his head the Titanic is only 8 miles away. Yet captain Lord was a highly qualified navigator which is more can be said for Mersey. Now over the years the figure may have changed. Captain Lord would claim 19 miles, However after years investigation by Sam Halpern believe it could be close as 14 miles. If that is the case all chance could well take 2 hours on arrival where the Titanic has sunk.
 
Answering the question of how long it takes to get to Titanic is highly contentious and not the subject of this thread.
No, it isn't. In fact it is extremely relevant to what the Californian could or could not have done.
We will assume 0140.
OK, but that's the point. Since we know what was happening on and around the sinking Titanic in the timeframe between 01:30am and 01:50am, if the Californian had arrived 10 minutes earlier or later, it could have made a big difference in the outcomes that you have described. But please note that I am NOT going to comment on that because I don't have the necessary expertise to opine on the nautical details that you have mentioned.

But I hope that the likes of Sam Halpern, MHS, Steven Christian and others who have nautical and/or engineering experience wil read this thread and comment on whether the scenario in your post and the outcome below is realistic.
No clear breakdown of who jumped and who was in the boats will ever be completed; when the final tally is made there are approximately 1300 survivors and approximately 900 people went to the bottom that night.
 
No, it isn't. In fact it is extremely relevant to what the Californian could or could not have done.

OK, but that's the point. Since we know what was happening on and around the sinking Titanic in the timeframe between 01:30am and 01:50am, if the Californian had arrived 10 minutes earlier or later, it could have made a big difference in the outcomes that you have described. But please note that I am NOT going to comment on that because I don't have the necessary expertise to opine on the nautical details that you have mentioned.

But I hope that the likes of Sam Halpern, MHS, Steven Christian and others who have nautical and/or engineering experience wil read this thread and comment on whether the scenario in your post and the outcome below is realistic.

I can arbitrarily modify the outcome based on the time; I could write twenty different variations of what I just wrote, the survivor count going up and down depending on how the situation plays out. I am probably wrong about a lot of details!

But the point is that Californian could have laid alongside and taken people off directly without undo risk to Captain Lord’s command. Captain Carey did it in much worse weather between smaller vessels more affected by the swell.
 
You have to consider how long will it take for the Californian to arrival with Titanic. Lord Mersey idea to push through the ice if was not a problem at 11 knots. Which is impossible. The drag on the ship will at all chance cut your speed down to 5 knots, let alone putting the ship in danger of be damage to. Mersey has got in his head the Titanic is only 8 miles away. Yet captain Lord was a highly qualified navigator which is more can be said for Mersey. Now over the years the figure may have changed. Captain Lord would claim 19 miles, However after years investigation by Sam Halpern believe it could be close as 14 miles. If that is the case all chance could well take 2 hours on arrival where the Titanic has sunk.

I don’t have to consider that at all. This thread asked a specific question, and I provided a specific answer backed by historical data. To the scenario of Californian arriving before Titanic sinks, if that is arbitrarily correct, and I do not comment on whether or not it is in reality, then I am stating as objective fact that direct transfer of evacuees from Titanic to Californian was possible, the equivalent was done by civilian ships historically in worse conditions, and that the stakes in the Californian debate are accordingly much higher than just 60 or 70 lives. It is hundreds or depending on distance and time, a thousand.
 
No, it isn't. In fact it is extremely relevant to what the Californian could or could not have done.

OK, but that's the point. Since we know what was happening on and around the sinking Titanic in the timeframe between 01:30am and 01:50am, if the Californian had arrived 10 minutes earlier or later, it could have made a big difference in the outcomes that you have described. But please note that I am NOT going to comment on that because I don't have the necessary expertise to opine on the nautical details that you have mentioned.

But I hope that the likes of Sam Halpern, MHS, Steven Christian and others who have nautical and/or engineering experience wil read this thread and comment on whether the scenario in your post and the outcome below is realistic.
Arun you shouldn't include my name with to regards to nautical experience. Yes I spent time at sea aboard a warship but my duties were in the aviation branch. What I know about running ships is mostly what I've read or saw. Never stood the type of watches that were required to run/handle a ship. That being said what I'm going to say next is just an observation. I did witness 3 rescues at sea. 2 man overboard and 1 pilot recovery from ejection. Even with modern technology it took time to get them back aboard. 15-25 mins or so. That was with helo's, trained rescue swimmers and knowing their exact location. Also it was warm water. My point is it took time with what I would describe as ideal rescue conditions.
I'm just going on what I know of the Californian to be accepted as true, the distances established, the conditions that night. And the time it would take for everything to fall into place. I just don't see it happening that the Californian would have been able to pull it off. Is it impossible? No as mitfrc has pointed out it has been done before but conditions were different and again time is the key. I also don't think Captain Lord would have taken the risks putting his own ship in danger to try and pull it off with the conditions that night. Just my opinion of course. This all falls into the "if only" situation. If only one thing out of 20 had been different.....Cheers.
 
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