Human Remains

G'Morning Eric:

As always I appreciate your input. The *pair of shoes* reference I made was from a segmented interview with Dr. Ballard, one of which orgin escapes me now. You realize the abundance of TITANIC documentaries...but it was one with regards to the embattled salvage issue. Perhaps it was the *extended* "Secrets of the Titanic" (Nat'l Geo). The added 19 minutes is primarily an interview with Ballard. Or, it may have been the PBS exclusive..."Battle for the Titanic". I particulary enjoyed this one, Ralph White was quick to note that Ballard *needs* to extend credit to the others who participated on the U.S. expedition team of '85. Perhaps his reason for disclosing the wreck's coordinates to IFREMER.

And yes I am familiar with the Sept. '85 TV interview of your aforemention. Something to the effect of "The ship rests on a gently sloping incline overlooking a canyon...her mighty stacks pointing upward". I recall the '85 U.S. team even thinking that they had retrieved some TITANIC funnel paint, as the ARGO camera sled had had a brief encounter.

As we are all aware now, the stacks were violently detached during the sinking/break-up!

Have a good day...me, I'm off to work.

Michael Cundiff
USA
 
Yeah, the "mighty stacks" reference was in the press conference because at the time they both felt the second and third funnels were intact. Looking at the initial news coverage of Titanic's discovery and the initial interviews is a fascinating look at how so much of the initial information we received turned out to be so wrong. The first pictures of Titanic that aired on TV on the CBS Evening News (which somehow managed to get exclusive network rights for the first pictures) show the bow section and Dan Rather's preface says, "You can see the iceberg damage." Looking at it now, it's clear that this bit of wishful thinking was caused by misinterpreting a rusticle pattern. Then there was Ballard's description of the "jackstaff for the flag" on the bow, which was actually the boom anchor swung in the opposite direction.
 
Eric:

Interesting that you should mention the *Iceberg damage*. A highlight of my pro-'85 TITANIC collection is a vast array of newspaper clippings, which even includes a S.F. Chronicle front pg. clipping..."We think we've got the Titanic" (Jack Grimm's futile attempt). Anyhow one of the first publicly released photographs
(And a part of my *NP clippings* collection) from Ballard's R.V. in '85 was a photograph bearing a caption to the effect of *iceberg damage*.

And as for only glimpsing a faint "C" of the 18" portside bow letters, purportedly (Dr. Ballard) the name was *consumed* by time? In 1987, Paul Henri Nargeolet and his NAUTILE would prove otherwise.

And what of the triple screws? However, ALVIN submersible pilot Dudley Foster acted accordingly in retracting the endangered submersible from the precarious *overhanging poop*...Dr. Ballard would *rashly* record in his "Discovery of the Titanic"..."The propellors are buried deeply in the sea-bottom".

Again the FRENCH with their submersible NAUTILE would prove otherwise...

By far it is not my intention to disrepect a man's reputation here on ET...but as a youth my Father instilled upon me an, sacred if you will, VALUE..."Always be sure to extend credit where credit is due".

And Eric...after 15 YEARS the anti-salvage camp has yet to produce the *infamous* crows-nest footage...what gives?

For the *unbeknowst* members of ET, this heated salvage debate originates way back. And for the record I have archived the *demeaning* nature of the threads ([email protected] - TitanicListbox.com) aimed at the TITANIC salvage endeavor and it's supporters.

I remain,

Michael Cundiff
Carson City, NV. USA
 
"And Eric...after 15 YEARS the anti-salvage camp has yet to produce the *infamous* crows-nest footage...what gives?"

This remains one of the most laughable aspects of anti-salvage extremism ever. There was once a certain gent who shall remain nameless (but I think you know who I'm referring to) who had a peculiar habit of claiming that the destruction of the crows nest by Nautile could be seen in the 1988 Doug Llewelyan hosted special. He said this was seen in the version that was broadcast on TV and was snipped from the home video version. There was only one problem though. I still had my personally taped copy of the special and gave a detailed accounting of what was in the special and it showed no such thing. What follows are the excuses this gentleman then resorted to, and no, I am not making these up:

1-First, the gentleman insisted that this footage was seen in a "longer" version of the special that only aired in certain markets on TV but not in New York, which was where I taped my copy from. Now anyone who knows something about how TV specials are put together, will tell you that this kind of thing never happens with *any* TV program. One version is prepared for all stations and there is not a single instance in the history of television where one market received a "longer" version of a program than another market.

2-I then asked this gentleman to send me a copy of his tape, which he insisted showed this incriminating footage. He refused. I then asked if he could put screen captures of this on his web site and let us see for ourselves. He refused. At this point, a trend was beginning to become clear.

3-But let us come back to another salient point that seemed to get lost in the shuffle amidst these bold declarations about incriminating footage being on TV. How can RMS Titanic Inc. on the one hand be so smart as to get everyone who took part in this expedition to never admit to this, yet at the same time they could be so dumb as to let this supposedly incriminating footage escape into the editing process? Is there any rational sense to be found in the idea that somehow footage like that would end up being broadcast for millions to see? (yet amazingly no one who watched or taped that special ever saw it?)

This kind of modus operandi, I'm sorry to say, was quite typical of the most vocal anti-salvage people throughout the 1990s, and the sad thing is that they were often able to get away with it by wrapping themselves up in the mantle of the Ballard perspective. Having been away from Titanic circles for two years, it now seems as though this brand of anti-salvage thought has died out, but the scars that remain from the wounds they inflicted are still deep and the world of Titanic enthusiasts I don't think will ever fully recover from them.
 
I think I'm going to withdraw myself from this debate. The possibility of bad blood tarnishing this board's too great, and I don't want to end up turning this into a shouting match.

I've pointed out my reservations regarding salvage, and share such reservations with the Monitor salvage, yet the Monitor is in good hands. I wish I could say the same for Titanic, but I can't. I would also like to mention that Mr. Paddon, though he has labeled others as well as myself as hypocrites, is guilty of such a double standard in regards to the treatment of the USS Arizona.

That, and given I'm about to start classes in a few days, I don't have the energy to carry on several debates at once, including this heated one. For future reference, however, anyone wishing to discuss this with me should do so over e-mail.


Adam
 
Let's please keep this debate on a friendly note. We may all not agree but sometimes it's best to just let others have there opinions.

Be fore warned that I will not tolerate name calling and personal attacks on this or any thread that I moderate.

So let's all enjoy the friendly debate.

Thanks
 
Adam, I'm afraid I don't see where the double standard is with regard to the Arizona. Museums already have plenty of items from the Arizona that were taken from the wreck when the superstructure was cut away to clear the channel (this included removal of the anchors which are on display I believe), and people can go right to the wreck itself and see it in a "context" that does not require spending a million dollars to go to the bottom of the ocean. And with almost 1500 trapped inside the wreck, which is not the case of Titanic, and with artifacts already removed to satisfy the museum need for future generations, there is in the end no double standard involved comparable to the one taken by those who have been on the extreme end of the anti-salvage issue with regard to Titanic.

I have to say with all honesty, I remain perplexed as to why the instances of behavior by some people such as Robert Ballard with regard to the crows nest never elicits any comment from those who are so quick to find fault with every aspect of Titanic salvage.
 
Eric:

During the promotion of Daniel Butler's "Unsinkable" book, my folks just happened to be in the Monrovia, CA area. My Mother phoned and asked..."Would you like a signed copy of the book?", of which I were to respond with..."Why yes Mother, but more than that I would like you to confront Mr. Butler
with an E-Mail for me". As Butler was subjected to the information via my forwarded E-mail in regards to the crow's nest, and the alleged television/VCR/tape in his possesion (Said to ferry around with him in his vehicle) which, at the time propagated the Titanic discussion forums, I would receive a hand written reply on my E-Mail..."The original footage has since been edited", as my Mother returned to Carson City.

Poppycock! As an aside to this nonsense, I too am in possesion of the highly sought after, 1987 live from Paris, France "Return to the Titanic" (Joslyn) television broadcast, and the 1988 Doug Llewelyan tape of your aforemention.

Why is it Eric that when the most staunch supporters of the pro-salvage camp, as with yourself and I, produce *concrete* facts, the anti-salvage camp, either withdraws from the mannerable debate, or continues with heresay?

BTW, I am also a *deep-sea submersible* enthusiast (hence the screename: NAUTILE125) and am very familiar with the video camera set-up/operation affixed to the front of NAUTILE. If indeed the submersible pilot were endeavoring to retrieve the *foremast running light*, by no means would their camera(s) be poised much furthur down the mast where the *crows nest* was affixed, in order to have captured the *alleged* footage.

Michael Cundiff
USA
 
I went to the Mariners Museum in Newport News VA Monday and I feel the Monitor artifacts are in fantastic hands. The museum are in the process of treating the items, which is in many cases a 10 year task. I got to view the recently raised turret which was in a steel restoration/preservation box still under construction by volunteers from the Newport News Shipyard. The state of the Monitor today versus the early 80s is such that one must either raise artifacts or lose them forever, a situation that Titanic finds herself in as well. Certainly the many of the items raised teach us and tell a story perhaps the most interesting is a lantern that it is believed was used to signal help on that stormy night off the NC coast. The museum was flying flags at half mast as some remains have been discovered at the site. All in all I was extremely impressed with the efforts being made to properly take care of the items and show respect for the lost lives. If anyone is in the area I recommend this museum highly. They even have a small Titanic exhibit which includes among other items a small vanity box retrieved from the sea after Titanic sank. It is nearly identical to one shown in Father Brown's photo of his cabin. Additionally their collection of models is top notch, many having been donated by the shipping lines directly to the museum.


Brian
 
The Titanic was perhaps the most important commercial shipwreck in history, so why there are still some who feel she is somehow unworthy of exploration or exhibition is bewildering.

I like Eric's mention of chronological snobbery, as Ive seen it amongst my friends who are marine archaeologists.

Im interested in shipwrecks form the age of steam-1850-1950, but my friends interested in wrecks from antiquity tell me somehow the ships I study of not as historically relevant as what they study. I say poppycock!

That very close minded mindset is why no major ocean liners from before WW1 were ever preserved.

There also seems a curious prejudice against ocean liners- Warships that sank are deemed historicaly relivant from any age, but ocean liners, not nearly so. Why is that?

The notion that since we 'have' survivng artifacts from Olympic, there is no need to explore Titanic' is simple poppycock. Number one Olympic was not Titanic. Number two, most of the Olympic items are in private collections.

I have had the incredible honor of working at five Titanic Artifact Exhibitions, with and around the artifacts, and can assure you , the artifacts serve a great purpose. They bring the story of Titanic to the people, and make this ship tangible for scores, who would otherwise know Titanic only as a picture in a book.

We used to have the lifeboat davit touchable, and many tears were shed, and dreams realised when people held that piece of the ship that for so long had been a part of their life...

For now, only an elite few can dive on the wreck, so the artifacts recovered bring Titanic to the people. But I do hope the tourist dives to the wreck resume, as I wish to see the Titanic wreck in person, and hope you all have that chance too..

Dr Ballard may have helped open the door for deep sea exploration, but the man is arrogant,based on his own words and actions, and there is more than enough evidence to prove his venom at the artifact recovery efforts was nothing more than sour grapes- Someone beat him to the punch.

Perhaps after hoodwinking his French Titanic expedition coleader by releasing the Expedition photos first, Ballard earned their spite, and the French involvement with the early artifact recovery efforts struck Ballard as a slap in the face. I think Ballard felt if he couldnt recover artifacts, then nobody should...

I just find it telling how Ballard indicated the desire to be the first..and last person to explore the great wrecks on the sea floor...

I have followed the raising of the Hunley and the Monitor turret with great interest. Both wrecks contained human remains- and without doubt anyone in favor of the recovery of those Civil War wrecks, who turns around and dismisses Titanic artifct recovery endeavours as graverobbing are blatent hippocrites...

The notion that unmanned probes can do our deep sea exploring for us is very disturbing. Where is the spirit of exploration? One may as well stay indoors and explore the outdoors by looking out the window...

My hope is Gellar and cronies will be ousted from RMSTI, and more sane minds will return the company to a rational course. There needs to be a permamnant museum for the artifacts, where conservation can occour onsite. The dive footage needs to be catloged into a central archive, where museum visitors can view the dive tapes at their leisure.

But no doubt smaller satelite exhibits would bring in revenue for the exhibits.
And there would need to be more expeditions, to film the deep interior of the wreck, and to raise, conserve and exhibit the artifacts.

regards

Tarn Stephanos
 
Tarn said; The notion that unmanned probes can do our deep sea exploring for us is very disturbing. Where is the spirit of exploration? One may as well stay indoors and explore the outdoors by looking out the window...

Hi Tarn, I'd say the spirit of exploration is alive and well, albit not conducted quite as recklessly as in ages past. Regarding deep sea exploration, my bet is that unmanned probes will be the way to go for some overwhelmingly practical reasons, not the least of which is that nobody has...as yet...figured out how to build a diving suit which will not implode on the diver at a depth of 2.5 miles. Also, poking around inside a disintigrating wreck is a phenomonally dangerous way to make a living. One little mistake, and you'll find out in an instant whether or not there really is an afterlife!

Make no mistake about it, manned submersibles will never go away, but there are places they can't get into whereas ROV's can, and at much lower risk.
 
Hello all!

Here is the long and short of this entire debate. (In my humble opinion.) HUNLEY....Gravesite. MONITOR....Gravesite, TITANIC.....Gravesite. That's it. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. As for what is considered Archeological or not, lets take a look at a whole new creature. the Pyramids of Egypt. what are they you may ask? Gravesites. Oh thats right ladies and gentlemen, they are graves. Yet MOST people see nothing wrong with breaking into them and looking through them and blatently taking what they want. Then they put it in a Muesum and study it and say "Hey look everyone!...Archaeology!" If you go to a place where a signifigant historical event took place, remove ANYTHING from said place and study it, you are performing Archaeology. Now, as a former US Navy Sailor, I agree 100% that the crews of the Hunley and Monitor and whatever other Navy ship out there should be given the Proper Military Burial that they deserve. The Arizona is another thing all together. That ship IS their grave. The Navy has said so, so there is no reason to recover them for burial. In fact, many Arizona survivors have their bodies place inside the hull after their deaths to reamin with their shipmates for ever. So in saying that, you cant even use the Arizona in this conversation, Its a whole different entity.
Now as for TITANIC, First of all there are No human remains to bring up and bury. That should be end of story but its not. In my opinion, while the loss of TITANIC was tragic, the people who died that night are in their graves. Leave them, and their personal belongings alone. IF you or anyone else want to bring items from the SHIP up, then that is fine. You study it and call it Archaeology and learn about the past. A debate about "proper burial" for these 1,500 souls is pointless as they have been buried at sea. Let them Rest In Piece.
Regards,
Ryan
 
Ryan:

You seemed to have contradicted yourself. First you want to tell us that the HUNLEY, MONITER, and TITANIC are gravesites. Then it's o.k. to raise the dead from the HUNLEY and MONITER, as you would say..."To give them proper burial". You want to differentiate the U.S.N. MONITER and the U.S.N. ARIZONA. Do you really feel that those chaotic remains, at Pearl Harbor, of a once proud battleship is an appropriate grave? Having deemed so by whom, the Japanese military of 1941?

Do you really think that those less fortunate immigrants who left the "old world" in April 1912, with aspirations of a "new world" would have wanted it that way. What of final closure?

Then please tell me in your own honest opinion...should we have dove to the TWA Flight 800 wrecksite off the eastern seaboard, took some pictures, wrote a book, released a documentary, and left the surviving members of those victims to anguish with grieve until their deaths.

Where are your loved ones buried? Two of mine, my beautiful spirited sister, Virgina, who was cut down by a drunk-driver at 28, rests in eternal peace just blocks away. My Uncle Duane, upheld the meaning of "Land of the Free. Home of the Brave", during WWII and was commemorated by Navy brass for his courage...only to die from alchoholism as a result of his painful experience at the "Battle of Midway" campaign. My Uncle Duane rests just a quaint four hr. drive from my home. My good friend Arthur Bayer can take an airflight from NV to go pay respects to his boy, Arthur Bayer Jr., just 34 and taken a plot at Arlington National Cemetary with his fellow heros. Now that my friend is a gravesite, that is hallowed ground, that is what this country is made of!

Thank GOD I do not have to pay the cost for a seat ($35,000) in a deep-sea submersible to pay homage to my loved ones.

Wanna know, IMHO, what should be done with the U.S.N. ARIZONA remains? Raise the entire site, thereby preventing the inevitable environmental hazard. Remove the dead, and like the HUNLEY reserve the most sacred of honorable memorial gravesites for them. Return the personal effects to the next close of kin...and ship the torn asunderd ship remains to Kure, Japan, where it can be placed in *their* War museum...let that country aghast in horror.

"Big Mo" is our ARIZONA memorial, after partaking in avenging those deaths at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese G'ovt bowed to those 16" guns with apology, and endorsed the documents of surrender. U.S.N. MISSOURI now stands eternal vigil over the site. She gleams proudly and stands tall. (And even had a couple of extra punchs to throw Saddam's way in '92)

BTW, at our Nevada State Capitol complex is erected a memorial (and the ship's bell) for those lost aboard the U.S.N. NEVADA on 7 Dec. '41. I pay homage nearly every week to the names of those lost...so many...so young...

Michael A. Cundiff
USA
 
Been away for a bit from this forum but Michael, your account regarding Butler gave me a good chuckle. Isn't amazing that you can find more examples of the old "dog ate my homework" theme in the extremists who yap about "crows nest destruction footage" then anywhere else in Titanic circles?
happy.gif
 
I don't see how you can even try to compare TWA flight 800 with Titanic or any of the other cases we've been talking about. First off, we didn't know what happened with flight 800. We wanted to recover the plane pieces in the hopes of finding out what happened so that we might prevent it in the future.There were no survivors to tell us what happened. We know what happened to Titanic, we have survivors accounts.

We recovered bodies from flight 800 to return them to family members so that they might bring closure. That's not what's going on here with Titanic. What's going on here is justification for looting a gravesite and personal possessions in the name of historical research.

I don't know if Walter Lord ever handled artifacts from Titanic. He certainly didn't before his books and movie. He didn't need to. No one does. How many of us were researching Titanic before the wreck was even discovered? We don't need to see artifacts, the interest is genuine.

I'm sure you can (and likely will) argue that the artifacts have gotten people interested who might then contribute to research. I can equally argue that Cameron's movie has, as has well written documentories and papers. I don't need to touch a davit from Titanic. And I fail to see how recovering artifacts and ship pieces does anything to further historical knowledge or honor the victims.
Cheers,
Kathy
 

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