Gaston Sam
Member
I had also thought #9 is likely to be John Hart, and for #2 and #4 I have William Wright and Sidney Daniels as possible candidates.
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Identifying crew in photos
- Thread starter Paul Burrell
- Start date
Michael Hinz
Member
I am sure #5 is baker Charles Burgess. He was on duty at the time of the collision and was rescued in lifeboat 13. This could explain why he is still wearing his chef hat
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Paul Burrell
Member
More than happy to collaborate with you guys on this. The crew survivors are of particular interest to me.
I have been looking at the photos taken inside/outside the Seaman’s Institute for some time. Here is my opinion on the cast of characters in the cooks and stewards photo.
Firstly, the work done by Sam previously has helped immensely, particularly when it came to discounting certain individuals in the victualling department who are in the Plymouth photo. The resolution on that photo is very good.
The hats on the chaps in 5 and 10 are a good clue. Other photos from within the Seaman’s Institute - the one with Ernest Archer standing up springs to mind - is evidence that the crew survivors where still wearing the clothes that they wore when they left Titanic.
We will of course be hindered by not having pictures of certain crew. However, new pictures are always coming to light which will allow us to identify crew or revise our identifications. The new picture of AB Hopkins supplied by a relative was fantastic.
Unfortunately, I am not a tech wizard so I cannot insert the pictures and do the side by side comparison so will just have to list my thoughts.
1 - It’s a shame this chap is in the dark. He is about 5’ 10. I think we can discount Arthur Lewis and Charles Savage. It could be 20 year old Arthur Burrage or 23 year old Albert Thomas.
2 - This is Isaac Maynard. No doubt.
3 - Unsure.
4 - I think this is Harold Prior, his height at 5’ 7 fits too.
5 - A high degree of certainty that this is 18 year old Charles Burgess. The hat is a clue but his face has a distinct likeness to another shot of him.
6 - I think this is William Ryerson, not Horace Ross.
7 - Leo Hyland. 100%.
8 - Unsure.
9 - I think this Is Joseph Wheat. The person has an air of authority. I thought for a time that it was Hardy but the likeness isn’t there.
10 - Taking into consideration the hat, I reckon this is Alfred Windebank.
11 - Unsure.
12 Allen Baggott. 100%.
I have been looking at the photos taken inside/outside the Seaman’s Institute for some time. Here is my opinion on the cast of characters in the cooks and stewards photo.
Firstly, the work done by Sam previously has helped immensely, particularly when it came to discounting certain individuals in the victualling department who are in the Plymouth photo. The resolution on that photo is very good.
The hats on the chaps in 5 and 10 are a good clue. Other photos from within the Seaman’s Institute - the one with Ernest Archer standing up springs to mind - is evidence that the crew survivors where still wearing the clothes that they wore when they left Titanic.
We will of course be hindered by not having pictures of certain crew. However, new pictures are always coming to light which will allow us to identify crew or revise our identifications. The new picture of AB Hopkins supplied by a relative was fantastic.
Unfortunately, I am not a tech wizard so I cannot insert the pictures and do the side by side comparison so will just have to list my thoughts.
1 - It’s a shame this chap is in the dark. He is about 5’ 10. I think we can discount Arthur Lewis and Charles Savage. It could be 20 year old Arthur Burrage or 23 year old Albert Thomas.
2 - This is Isaac Maynard. No doubt.
3 - Unsure.
4 - I think this is Harold Prior, his height at 5’ 7 fits too.
5 - A high degree of certainty that this is 18 year old Charles Burgess. The hat is a clue but his face has a distinct likeness to another shot of him.
6 - I think this is William Ryerson, not Horace Ross.
7 - Leo Hyland. 100%.
8 - Unsure.
9 - I think this Is Joseph Wheat. The person has an air of authority. I thought for a time that it was Hardy but the likeness isn’t there.
10 - Taking into consideration the hat, I reckon this is Alfred Windebank.
11 - Unsure.
12 Allen Baggott. 100%.
Gaston Sam
Member
Very nice Paul! So I think the three of us agree without any doubt about Hyland and Baggott. And we also agree #5 is very likely Charles Burgess.
I also agree it’s a shame the lightning condition of #1 and I suggest we leave him for the end.
I’m not sure about Ryerson, Paul. #6 is sitting in a position which can be a little tricky due to the lightning ratio. Anyway let’s make a comparison between this man and William Ryerson:
and then with Horace Ross:
One thing to note is the lock of hair emerging from the left of #6’s hairline. The other thing is the presence of a bit of a cleft chin.
What do you guys say?
I also agree it’s a shame the lightning condition of #1 and I suggest we leave him for the end.
I’m not sure about Ryerson, Paul. #6 is sitting in a position which can be a little tricky due to the lightning ratio. Anyway let’s make a comparison between this man and William Ryerson:
and then with Horace Ross:
One thing to note is the lock of hair emerging from the left of #6’s hairline. The other thing is the presence of a bit of a cleft chin.
What do you guys say?
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Michael Hinz
Member
Hello Paul! Nice work! I am also glad to work with you guys.
Here are my thoughts for the stewards and cooks:
1: He is also seen in the group picture on the stairs of this building. I think it is Charles Savage. Look at his height and his prominent ears.
2: I am not sure about Isaac Maynard. The man reminds me also of William Watson Lucas but I think Maynard is a very good guess.
3: I have no doubt that this man is Arthur McMicken.
4: Harold John Prior is an excellent guess!
5: I am sure that this man is Charles Burgess.
6: There are several crewmen with a similar look: William Wright, Horace Ross, Arthur Lewis... Thanks to Gaston Sam we can assume that this man is Horace Ross.
7: Leo Hyland. No doubt.
8: This could be Pantryman Albert Victor Pearcey. His hight was 5' 6'' (1,67m). There are many other possibilities (Harry Yearsley, Joseph Wheat, Arthur Burrage... Of course it could be one of the crewmen without known pictures.
9: This man is also seen on the other big group picture, standing right to Leo Hyland. I think it is John Hardy.
10: It must be one of the surviving cooks and bakers. I will work on this identity in the next days.
11: Maybe Alfred Pugh.
12: I am absolutely sure that this man is Allen Baggott.
Alex Kiehl
Member
Did Haines have a moustache at the time of the sinking? I always thought that dark spot on his face was his lips, lol.
Alex Kiehl
Member
Sam, don't you mean 77 male Victualling survivors (excluding the 20 women)? Aren't the figures for surviving crew 43 Deck, 72 Engineering, and 97 Victualling?
Michael Hinz
Member
Gaston Sam
Member
Certainly Alex, there were 76 male survivors of the Victualling department plus one sole survivor of the Restaurant Staff (Paul Maugé). Of course I excluded the 20 women as they don't appear in any of these photographs.
Gaston Sam
Member
Although #11’s cap makes it a bit difficult to fully appreciate his face, I agree with Michael that Alfred Pugh is the best option. They both have a slightly round face, their expressions quite match (with an additional and reasonable fatigue in #11), and nose, lips and chin match too.
Michael Hinz
Member
Only six bakers and cooks survived the sinking. Their names are Windebank, Maynard, Ellis, Joughin, Burgess and Neal.
Alfred Windebank joined the ship in the last moment as substitute for another cook who failed to sign on. He was 38 years old. He was rescued, probably in lifeboat 13.
Isaac Maynard was 31 years old. He survived on the overturned collapsible boat B.
John Ellis was 28 years old. He left the ship in lifeboat 2. His presence was recalled by Steward James Johnstone. There are no known pictures of John Ellis.
Chief baker Joughin survived on the overturned collpsible boat B. I personally exclude him here because his hair looks darker on the pictures taken after the sinking. Besides, he was a very small man. He stood at just 5' 3 1/2'' (1,61m). The man on the pictures looks bigger, even though he is sitting. What do you guys think?
Charles Burgess was 18 years old an survived the sinking in lifeboat 13. It is very likely that he is the man standing right (5).
Harold Neal was 25 years old. He was rescued, probably in lifeboat 13. Neal stood at 5'8'' (1,72m). He had fair hair and a fresh complexion. There are no known pictures of young Harold Neal, only one picture from his later life.
There is another seventh survivor I have to mention. Thomas Knowles (44 years old) signed on as firemens' messman. He recieved monthly wages of £6. According to Günter Bäblers Crewbook (2013) Thomas Knowles was a cook for the engineering crew and not a steward. In the night of the sinking he was off duty but maybe his chef hat was the only hat he had.
Alfred Windebank joined the ship in the last moment as substitute for another cook who failed to sign on. He was 38 years old. He was rescued, probably in lifeboat 13.
Isaac Maynard was 31 years old. He survived on the overturned collapsible boat B.
John Ellis was 28 years old. He left the ship in lifeboat 2. His presence was recalled by Steward James Johnstone. There are no known pictures of John Ellis.
Chief baker Joughin survived on the overturned collpsible boat B. I personally exclude him here because his hair looks darker on the pictures taken after the sinking. Besides, he was a very small man. He stood at just 5' 3 1/2'' (1,61m). The man on the pictures looks bigger, even though he is sitting. What do you guys think?
Charles Burgess was 18 years old an survived the sinking in lifeboat 13. It is very likely that he is the man standing right (5).
Harold Neal was 25 years old. He was rescued, probably in lifeboat 13. Neal stood at 5'8'' (1,72m). He had fair hair and a fresh complexion. There are no known pictures of young Harold Neal, only one picture from his later life.
There is another seventh survivor I have to mention. Thomas Knowles (44 years old) signed on as firemens' messman. He recieved monthly wages of £6. According to Günter Bäblers Crewbook (2013) Thomas Knowles was a cook for the engineering crew and not a steward. In the night of the sinking he was off duty but maybe his chef hat was the only hat he had.
Michael Hinz
Member
I forgot to say that Charles Joughin was treated in a hospital in New York after his rescue. This picture was taken on 19th of April, so it is unlikely that Joughin appears on it.
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Paul Burrell
Member
Another great piece of work. I think you have most of them spot on.
Its a shame we do not have a height for Frederick Doel. Re #1 Doel was my primary candidate but it could well be John Diaper.
I must say I disagree with #5. I’ve convinced myself this is Thomas Knowles. The shape of the nose which looks slightly bent. His face shape is different to Rice, I think. I reckon Knowles would most likely be sat with the Engineering department, rather than the Victualling department. Rice was 5’ 2 and I think #5 is taller than that. This could be a candidate for Rice though. The height matches and the face shape is a closer fit.
Paul Burrell
Member
On balance, yes, I have to agree it is indeed Horace Ross. I have only a small doubt remaining because 1) Horace Ross is arguably the most distinct member of the crew and I just didn’t think it was him, 2) his moustache looks a different shape to the Plymouth photo, 3) the distinctive left ear looks identical to Ryerson and 4) #6 looks like he has more weight on him. I think I almost talked myself out of it again! Notwithstanding all that, the lock of hair is telling. It is tricky to judge some of these guys from one photo to the next - like our mystery friend (#21, I think) at the front in the Seaman’s Institute deck crew photo.
Gaston Sam
Member
Certainly, I had the same problem at first regarding Ross. But after considering the aforementioned details I had no doubt it was rather likely to be him; one has to remember that some crewmen would look a bit different in these photographs on account of all the physical and psychological distress they'd just been through. But even then, #6's look matches that of Ross, in the sense of the personal energy (aura if you will) emanated from them both.
