Identifying crew in photos

[Alex Kiehl]

Thank you for the appointment to forum administrator, but you have me mixed up with someone else.
By the way, the advice given to you by whoever it was looks very reasonable. Also, I believe a firemen's messman job would be to prepare meals for the firemen who were part of the engine department staff.

Oh sorry. I'm still learning things here. Does that mean a "messman" is similar to a "cook," not a "steward." Would that also mean since Cecil Fitzpatrick was a "mess steward" that his duties would have been similar to that of steward and not cook?

 

[Michael Hinz]

Oh sorry. I'm still learning things here. Does that mean a "messman" is similar to a "cook," not a "steward." Would that also mean since Cecil Fitzpatrick was a "mess steward" that his duties would have been similar to that of steward and not cook?

Yes, some of the job titles are irritating. The messmen had probably the same duties as a cook. You must see, Titanic had hundreds of hungry workers to feed around the clock. Every four hours a shift ended and the firemen, greasers and trimmers appeared in their messrooms. To care for these people you needed some cooks.

Cecil Fitzpatrick said in an interview that he served in the Engineers mess on Deck E. He recieved 3£15, which was the standard pay for stewards. He was definitely a steward.

 

[Michael Hinz]

#8 steward seems to be between 20-25 years old, probably up to 5'6'' tall, dark brown hair and fair complexion. Everything is already pointing to Pearcey, who also wears his hair with a similar part.

The only difference is that Pearcey seems to have a little bit larger face compared to #8's more rounded one. But it is not much, and it might be related to the lightning conditions and the resolution of the pictures. The nose wings also look a bit different, but again it could be a matter of lightning and resolution.

View attachment 48779

It is a shame there is not a better photo of Wilfred Foley, to make a better comparison. But other than that I would dismiss Burrage and I think Pearcey is the best option for #8.
*I may also be wrong with the second man of the above picture, who might not be the same as #8, and that being the case Pearcey would fit just great.

Great work! I think you really solved the mystery!

 

[Michael Hinz]

I never thought of Wilfred Foley but it is a great guess!

It is possible that you found Wilfred Foley on the big group picture. He was 21 years old, had dark hair and a height of 5'3'' (1,60m). Maybe he is standing on the second step of the stairs, then he would be still smaller than Leo Hyland. So I think he is also another candidate for #8

Now to another picture! Does anyone have this picture in a better resolution?

On the first look I can identify only steward Samuel James Rule (58 years old).

 

[Paul Burrell]

I enjoyed looking at this. I think you have the IDs spot on. The resolution of the photo is incredible. There is another photo taken from almost the same spot which is labelled as being in Plymouth. Notice the ‘Matchless Pears’ (soap) advertisement sign behind which is also just visible in your photo. This photo has poor resolution and a different set of crew. Do you have other photos too?
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I have found a better resolution photo of one I posted earlier. It is mainly the same cast of characters taken in almost the same spot in Plymouth. Chapman, Simmons and Widgery are not in it. Everyone else is in a different position but three new chaps are in this one on the far left (ignoring Gibbons).

 

[Paul Burrell]

View attachment 48782

I never thought of Wilfred Foley but it is a great guess!

It is possible that you found Wilfred Foley on the big group picture. He was 21 years old, had dark hair and a height of 5'3'' (1,60m). Maybe he is standing on the second step of the stairs, then he would be still smaller than Leo Hyland. So I think he is also another candidate for #8

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Now to another picture! Does anyone have this picture in a better resolution?
View attachment 48781

On the first look I can identify steward Samuel James Rule (58 years) and scullion Andrew Simmons (31 years).

I agree that it could be Foley. My only hesitation on Pearcey is that he has distinctive ears which do not seem to match #8 but it could well be the quality of the photo hindering the ID. Perhaps we should revise our #8 to - Pearcey (maybe Foley)?

 

[Paul Burrell]

View attachment 48782

I never thought of Wilfred Foley but it is a great guess!

It is possible that you found Wilfred Foley on the big group picture. He was 21 years old, had dark hair and a height of 5'3'' (1,60m). Maybe he is standing on the second step of the stairs, then he would be still smaller than Leo Hyland. So I think he is also another candidate for #8

View attachment 48783
View attachment 48784



Now to another picture! Does anyone have this picture in a better resolution?
View attachment 48781

On the first look I can identify steward Samuel James Rule (58 years) and scullion Andrew Simmons (31 years).

That is most certainly Samuel Rule. At first glance our friend Horace Ross is on the front bench second from right. Over his right shoulder, it looks like Baggott and Ball together again. Sam, Michael - Before we get onto this photo, is anyone brave enough to attempt the other fireman photo (not a good quality, that one) from inside the Seaman’s Institute or perhaps the photo on the front steps of the Seaman’s Institute?

 

[Michael Hinz]

The remaining picture of the surviving firemen is indeed a big challenge, as Sam said before in another post. I will try to identify some of the crewmen in the next days. The picture on the stairs has to many faces for my taste. I am afraid I would get confused quickly

 

[Gaston Sam]

Hello mates! I've also worked in the remaining firemen photo, I've got some names already. The point is that, though it may seem contrary to logic, the photo of the large group at the stairs is easier, and might even help with the firemen's one. So what do you say? Just to get ourselves ready; apart from that, I think we're not quite done yet with the stewards photograph.

 

[Michael Hinz]

You are right. We are not done yet. Then let us know all your thoughts about the remaining stewards and cooks

 

[Gaston Sam]

Oh sorry. I'm still learning things here. Does that mean a "messman" is similar to a "cook," not a "steward." Would that also mean since Cecil Fitzpatrick was a "mess steward" that his duties would have been similar to that of steward and not cook?

As Michael Hinz mentioned in post #92, Fitzpatrick attended the Engineer's Mess, and for that simple reason he was listed in the Engine Department. Anyway, his duties were more those of a steward, setting the tables of his own mess, serving the food (not cooking), and waiting the engineers.

 

[Gaston Sam]

You are right. We are not done yet. Then let us know all your thoughts about the remaining stewards and cooks

I will as soon as I can I will present something regarding #8 and #10, which of course you can also do. Then which one do you think would be best to follow? Stairs or firemen?

 

[Michael Hinz]

As you said, it would be better to look at the stairs first. I am not too familiar with the faces of the engineering department, but I will do my best.

I am a bit excited. Isn’t it a great feeling to identify people on pictures that are over a hundred years old? And we did it, guys. We identified many of Titanic‘s surviving crewmen in old photos and videos.

 

[Michael Hinz]

I will as soon as I can I will present something regarding #8 and #10, which of course you can also do. Then which one do you think would be best to follow? Stairs or firemen?

Could you give the men on the stairs numbers please? I already have ideas for some men, but I dont know what number to give them

 

[Michael Hinz]

While I was working on the stair photo I found a picture that was new to me. Sadly it seems to be protected by copyright, so I could only get a preview picture of bad quality. Maybe this picture will help us with other projects.

One of the surviving crewmen in this picture appears also on the photography of Titanic's kitchen staff in front of the port side verandah cafe, I think. It is likely that this man is Wilfred Seward. On the picture of the kitchen staff only three persons are identified (sitting left on the bench Alexis Bochatay, sitting in the middle Alfred Walpole and right next to him Charles Proctor). The man standing left behind Walpole could be Seward. This would also support my theory that the young man on the Carpathia is Seward (see my post #41).

What do you think?