Steve Dunham
Member
Can it be that Father Byles, if he indeed said Mass for steerage passengers, went down himself to the Third Class areas to do so rather than have any of the passengers come up to Second Class? If so, there would not have been on-board mixing of passengers from various classes (except the priest himself, of course), something that was enforced under WSL policy.I don't know how accurate the article is, but it says that Father Byles, a second-class passenger, said Mass for the people in third class.
I don't know how accurate the article is, but it says that Father Byles, a second-class passenger, said Mass for the people in third class.
I've done a wee bit of research on this and it appears to be correct. Father Byles' biography on the site states:Can it be that Father Byles, if he indeed said Mass for steerage passengers, went down himself to the Third Class areas to do so rather than have any of the passengers come up to Second Class?
Reading that sentence, it does not specifically say where on the ship Father Byles held Mass for Third Class passengers. At first glance it might appear as though Fr Byles remained in the Second Class Lounge (the 'library') after their Mass and the steerage passengers arrived there next, IMO it is very unlikely. That sentence could also mean (and I believe that it does) that after completing holding mass for the Second Class passengers in their lounge, Fr Byles then went down into Third Class to hold another mass for the Catholics there (probably in the "General Room").On the morning of Sunday 14 April Father Byles held the Catholic mass with second class passengers in their lounge and afterwards with the third class passengers for whom Fr Byles delivered a sermon in English and French, Fr Peruschitz followed with a sermon in German and Hungarian
This was from the comments section of the article below. Don't know if it helps your search but I'll post it anyway. Might be from the same booklet you quoted.A booklet of Lenten reflections says that a Catholic priest, Ralph Kotheimer, booked passage on the Titanic but was refused (by the White Star Line?) permission to say daily private Mass, so he canceled his ticket and traveled on the Rhyndam instead. A Google search for Kotheimer + Rhyndam turned up about 5 results, with some of them having identical text and one (that's Google for you) not mentioning Kotheimer at all. It sounds doubtful to me that saying private Mass, presumably in his cabin, would be forbidden, but maybe he had a third-class ticket and so did not have a private cabin? Also, I could find nothing about the Rhyndam. Is there any truth to the story?
I'm aware of that. As you said, it makes far more sense that Father Byles went down to the third class area, for various reasons. But most importantly, third class was not allowed in second class areas, nor first class for that matter.Reading that sentence, it does not specifically say where on the ship Father Byles held Mass for Third Class passengers.
My thinking as well, when reading that.That sentence could also mean (and I believe that it does) that after completing holding mass for the Second Class passengers in their lounge, Fr Byles then went down into Third Class to hold another mass for the Catholics there (probably in the "General Room").
Also there is a record of him arriving in the U.S. But I'm not a member of the site. Maybe someone here is and could look it up for you. Cheers.A booklet of Lenten reflections says that a Catholic priest, Ralph Kotheimer, booked passage on the Titanic but was refused (by the White Star Line?) permission to say daily private Mass, so he canceled his ticket and traveled on the Rhyndam instead. A Google search for Kotheimer + Rhyndam turned up about 5 results, with some of them having identical text and one (that's Google for you) not mentioning Kotheimer at all. It sounds doubtful to me that saying private Mass, presumably in his cabin, would be forbidden, but maybe he had a third-class ticket and so did not have a private cabin? Also, I could find nothing about the Rhyndam. Is there any truth to the story?
Pardon my ignorance on these matters but as an Agno-theist I don't follow any particular religion (though I was raised as Hindu) and know very little about various religious practices. What exactly is a "Private Mass"? To my mind, it sounds like saying one's prayers privately. If that was all that Rev Kotheimer wanted, why did he have to ask permission in the first place and when he did, why would it be denied?Before boarding he checked to see if he could celebrate Mass privately each day of the voyage. Permission was denied.
Thanks Steven. I have read about the slight "anti-Catholic ethos" on board WSL ships but was not sure of this was true because there were plenty of Catholic employees. In the rather poorly made TV documentary Saving the Titanic, an Irish Catholic steward named Kelly is repeatedly ribbed for his religious beliefs (which he was not stressing upon) with remarks that the Titanic was essentially a protestant ship or something like that.I've read of the religious strife in the shipyards of Belfast during Titanic's time but I don't know how WSL handled that or if they even had an official position or preference about it
I'm really not sure of the reason. I think it was most likely a space issue as they couldn't guarantee him a private area. From what little I read it was his decision to change ships not WSL I never read of any religious troubles aboard the ship. From what I understand 3rd class had members from all the major religions and probably some of the lesser known ones. They were probably just happy to get to go to America. Most for economic opportunity but some might have been seeking religious freedom like the original pilgrims. Too bad it didn't work out for them.Thanks Steven. I have read about the slight "anti-Catholic ethos" on board WSL ships but was not sure of this was true because there were plenty of Catholic employees. In the rather poorly made TV documentary Saving the Titanic, an Irish Catholic steward named Kelly is repeatedly ribbed for his religious beliefs (which he was not stressing upon) with remarks that the Titanic was essentially a protestant ship or something like that.
So, if WSL refused permission for Rev Kotheimer to hold a Private Mass, could it have been fears that it could have caused offence among non-Catholics?
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