Fairmaiden
Member
He had a brother ‘John Earnest Taylor’?? Born 1872
Relative Avoided Titanic Disaster
- Thread starter George1912#
- Start date
Arun Vajpey
Member
What would be more useful are George Taylor's own date of birth, middle name and family details. Especially his 'brother' who supposedly sailed on the Titanic.
While I am not saying that your GGGF Mr George Taylor made a false claim about his brother and family being Titanic victims, there are several points you should be aware of. There is a history of even the most respectable people claiming that they or their relatives were involved with the Titanic while research has shown otherwise. While in many cases the hoax was perpetuated by the individual himself/herself, it could also be the result of mischief by a relative, friend or associate. It is even possible that a newspaper simply made up the story.
There are several examples. Here are some:
In 1940 a woman named Helen Kramer claimed that she was really Titanic victim Loraine Allison (who was a 3 year old girl at the time) and she and her descendants managed to con several people for decades into believing her ridiculous story till recent DNA testing categorially exposed her hoax.
When Walter Lord started researching into his book A Night To Remember in the early 1950s, interest in the Titanic went though a major revival and along with genuine survivors or victims' relatives, a few hoaxers contacted him. Lord saw through almost all hoaxers including from a woman calling herself Vera Hanson who claimed to be the grown-up version of genuine Titanic survivor Virginia Martin-Emanuel. Although Lord saw through the scam and ignored Hanson's claim, several other Titanic researchers believed her story and have mentioned it in their books and articles. But excellent research by ET Moderator Philip Hind has revealed that the real Virginia Martin, who was 6 and a half years old at the time she survived the disaster, actually died in 1930, thus making Vera Hanson nothing more than a cheap hoaxer.
But Lord was fooled by an elderly man named Walter Belford who claimed that he had been a "Chief Night Baker" on board the Titanic. Ed Kamuda, one of the founders of the Titanic Historical Society, completely believed Belford's story and it might even have been the impetus that helped THS take shape in the 60s. But in reality, there was neither a crew member (or passenger, for that matter) named Walter Belford on the Titanic nor any position called "Chief Night Baker". He probably was not even a baker.
If you type "Artie Moore Titanic" in Google, you will find this Wikipedia article and several more with the same information. Artie Moore - Wikipedia
But diligent research by ET member Julian Atkins has shown that the story is not only not true, but Moore himself never made any such claim at the time of the disaster. The story originated in someone's fertile imagination soon after Moore died in 1949.
In a small cemetery in Aldinga, a suburb of Adelaide, Australia, there is a memorial stone for a man named Alan McRae who supposedly died in the Titanic disaster. In fact, my research showed that McRae was a sailor on board a T & J Harrison ship named Student and died in Panama on 5th April 1912, 5 days before the Titanic sailed out of Southampton.
So you see, there is a possibility that your GGGF George Taylor's story might swing either way. That said, newspapers are notorious to get such stories wrong or deliberately embellish them to improve sales. While Mr Taylor's Titanic victim brother might not have even existed, it is also possible that he was a step-brother, brother-in-law, cousin and even just a friend, any of whom would have had a different surname.
You might want to dig deeper within family circles to get more information.
While I am not saying that your GGGF Mr George Taylor made a false claim about his brother and family being Titanic victims, there are several points you should be aware of. There is a history of even the most respectable people claiming that they or their relatives were involved with the Titanic while research has shown otherwise. While in many cases the hoax was perpetuated by the individual himself/herself, it could also be the result of mischief by a relative, friend or associate. It is even possible that a newspaper simply made up the story.
There are several examples. Here are some:
In 1940 a woman named Helen Kramer claimed that she was really Titanic victim Loraine Allison (who was a 3 year old girl at the time) and she and her descendants managed to con several people for decades into believing her ridiculous story till recent DNA testing categorially exposed her hoax.
When Walter Lord started researching into his book A Night To Remember in the early 1950s, interest in the Titanic went though a major revival and along with genuine survivors or victims' relatives, a few hoaxers contacted him. Lord saw through almost all hoaxers including from a woman calling herself Vera Hanson who claimed to be the grown-up version of genuine Titanic survivor Virginia Martin-Emanuel. Although Lord saw through the scam and ignored Hanson's claim, several other Titanic researchers believed her story and have mentioned it in their books and articles. But excellent research by ET Moderator Philip Hind has revealed that the real Virginia Martin, who was 6 and a half years old at the time she survived the disaster, actually died in 1930, thus making Vera Hanson nothing more than a cheap hoaxer.
But Lord was fooled by an elderly man named Walter Belford who claimed that he had been a "Chief Night Baker" on board the Titanic. Ed Kamuda, one of the founders of the Titanic Historical Society, completely believed Belford's story and it might even have been the impetus that helped THS take shape in the 60s. But in reality, there was neither a crew member (or passenger, for that matter) named Walter Belford on the Titanic nor any position called "Chief Night Baker". He probably was not even a baker.
If you type "Artie Moore Titanic" in Google, you will find this Wikipedia article and several more with the same information. Artie Moore - Wikipedia
But diligent research by ET member Julian Atkins has shown that the story is not only not true, but Moore himself never made any such claim at the time of the disaster. The story originated in someone's fertile imagination soon after Moore died in 1949.
In a small cemetery in Aldinga, a suburb of Adelaide, Australia, there is a memorial stone for a man named Alan McRae who supposedly died in the Titanic disaster. In fact, my research showed that McRae was a sailor on board a T & J Harrison ship named Student and died in Panama on 5th April 1912, 5 days before the Titanic sailed out of Southampton.
So you see, there is a possibility that your GGGF George Taylor's story might swing either way. That said, newspapers are notorious to get such stories wrong or deliberately embellish them to improve sales. While Mr Taylor's Titanic victim brother might not have even existed, it is also possible that he was a step-brother, brother-in-law, cousin and even just a friend, any of whom would have had a different surname.
You might want to dig deeper within family circles to get more information.
Fairmaiden
Member
Fascinating! George Taylor : 1879-1971 father was Nun John Taylor, with Elizabeth Hincks. Any help would be gratefully received! If it isn’t true that would be good to know as well.
Fairmaiden
Member
Alice Braines who married John Ernest Taylor lived in Northamptonshire in 1901- maybe this helps? Maybe you can find my tree on ancestry?
Fairmaiden
Member
Agree- I am also in the same boat as you- pardon the pun- as I also want to know more about George and his brother/ titanic story.
Arun Vajpey
Member
Here is what little is available on "J Taylor", the fireman who died in the Titanic disaster.
As you can see, he was born around 1870 and was a married man probably in his early 40s when he sailed on the Titanic as one of the Engineering Crew. It is theoretically possible that your GGGF George Taylor, who was born in 1979, could have been a younger brother. Stretching this a bit, it is possible that George Taylor was the one who was supposed to sail as a passenger on board the Titanic with his family while his brother J Taylor was part of the crew. The Western Leader might have made a mistake in thinking that "J Taylor" also had his family on board.
I checked in my copy of Gunter Babler's Guide To The Crew Of The Titanic. It is a very comprehensive work but like others of it kind, cannot be considered foolproof. For example, John Henry Taylor, another fireman who died in the disaster, is listed as being 42 years old at the time but the better researched ET bio showed that he was actually 49 at the time of his death. His family details are known well enough for us to be certain that he was NOT your GGGU; for starters, he had no brother named George or Arthur and was born and baptized in Southampton.
There is an "unexplained" Fireman named Taylor mentioned in the book but it says his Christian initials were "T or J" and it is listed that he was only 23 years old at the time he died in the Titanic disaster. But the mysterious 'J Taylor' mentioned on ET was 42 at the time, more in-keeping with your GGGU John Ernest Taylor's age. They can't both be right; personally, I think the information on ET is more reliable as it has more than one contributor and is open to updates as and when required.
To be honest, I would have been inclined to think that George Taylor's Titanic story was yet another tall tale but the fact that he had an older brother named John Ernest Taylor and that there was a 42-year old married fireman named "J Taylor" who died in the sinking makes it a possibility. Whether the two men were one and the same needs more researched information to establish one way or another.
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Fairmaiden
Member
Fairmaiden
Member
I’ll keep hunting- it’s be nice to solve the mystery! I guess I’ll try work out a when and where GGrandpa George got married and what kids he had befor he left UK - I’ll keep in touch
Arun Vajpey
Member
IMO, I think your time would be better spent if you could first find out what John Ernest Taylor - whom you know was your GGGF George Taylor's older brother - did for a living. It if turns out that he was sailor, we would be halfway there with George's story; the next step would be to determine if John Ernest Taylor was a fireman on board the Titanic and if so, he would almost certainly be the "J Taylor" mentioned on ET.
Fairmaiden
Member
Great tips - thanks!
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Fairmaiden
Member
Seems he was a mechanic. And I found that his wife was single/ widowed
Arun Vajpey
Member
Very interesting, thanks.
The Fireman named "J Taylor" who died in the Titanic disaster was born circa 1870 (exact year unknown) but his last residence is listed as in Southampton. That in itself meant very little because a lot of sailors took temporary rented accommodation in port cities like Southampton & Liverpool before voyages.
The real question is whether your GGGU John Taylor had any experience as a ship's fireman by 1911; if not, would he have been able to train as one in less than a year? I don't know the answer to that question but some others here on ET might.
Yes. That 1911 census lists John Taylor's age as 37 in the 1911 Census, which meant he was born in 1873 or 1874. His occupation is listed more specifically an "Iron Fence Maker". He lived with his wife in Leicester,
The Fireman named "J Taylor" who died in the Titanic disaster was born circa 1870 (exact year unknown) but his last residence is listed as in Southampton. That in itself meant very little because a lot of sailors took temporary rented accommodation in port cities like Southampton & Liverpool before voyages.
The real question is whether your GGGU John Taylor had any experience as a ship's fireman by 1911; if not, would he have been able to train as one in less than a year? I don't know the answer to that question but some others here on ET might.
Can you find out how and when she became widowed? If her husband John Taylor was indeed the same as the Fireman J Taylor who went down with the Titanic, that could explain a lot of things.
Fairmaiden
Member
I’ll try
Arun Vajpey
Member
I noted that George and John Taylor were your GGF and GGU respectively and not a generation earlier like I had wrongly presumed. Sorry about that.
I did a bit more searching among the crew lists published on the web. Many of them might be of dubious reliability but there is some ambiguous information which is interesting to say the least.
The most reliable list is the one here on ET and as we discussed, it includes a Fireman named J Taylor who was around 42 years of age (date of birth unknown) who died in the sinking.
Gunter Babler's book Guide To The Crew Of The Titanic lists a Fireman victim as a man named Taylor T (or J?) - that's what it says - but gives his age as 23 years. He is the only Taylor in the book whose details cannot be verified elsewhere, including ET.
But some lesser known sources mention both "J Taylor" and "T Taylor", both listed as Firemen who died in the disaster. No ages mentioned for either but all other Taylors, both victims and survivors were accounted for. This raises the possibility (and no more) that there were two of them - a married fireman around 40 named J Taylor and a younger fireman around 23 named T Taylor, possibly single; both men are listed as having died in the sinking.
I did a bit more searching among the crew lists published on the web. Many of them might be of dubious reliability but there is some ambiguous information which is interesting to say the least.
The most reliable list is the one here on ET and as we discussed, it includes a Fireman named J Taylor who was around 42 years of age (date of birth unknown) who died in the sinking.
Gunter Babler's book Guide To The Crew Of The Titanic lists a Fireman victim as a man named Taylor T (or J?) - that's what it says - but gives his age as 23 years. He is the only Taylor in the book whose details cannot be verified elsewhere, including ET.
But some lesser known sources mention both "J Taylor" and "T Taylor", both listed as Firemen who died in the disaster. No ages mentioned for either but all other Taylors, both victims and survivors were accounted for. This raises the possibility (and no more) that there were two of them - a married fireman around 40 named J Taylor and a younger fireman around 23 named T Taylor, possibly single; both men are listed as having died in the sinking.
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