Michael H. Standart
Member
Hi Morgan; Can't say as I have, but I'm always open to an education from a qualified source. You seem to fill the bill, so fill me in.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Modern Ship's Engines
- Thread starter Micheal Napier
- Start date
-
- Tags
- engines
Morgan Eric Ford
Guest
This URL does a better job of explaining the details of the absorbtion cycle then I can. I barely know my way around a freon system!
http://www.broadusa-inc.com/absorb.html
The machine described here uses lithium bromide and water. I think they used ammonia and some sort of chloride originally.
Basically heat is used to force the refrigerant out of solution. This serves the same function as the compressor in a conventional system.
I've been told that big diesel trucks that operate in cold climates have fuel tank heaters. Supposedly, they run lines from the engine cooling system through coils in the fuel tanks. Some poeple mix gasoline with diesel fuel to thin it out a bit for cold climates. DF #2 is the most common diesel but there is also a DF #1 that's made for cold climates.
Read someplace that some marine diesels will operate on thicker grades of fuel oil once they are warm. These engines are supposed to have some sort of a heater arrangment for the thicker fuel. This is done for reasons of economy as the thicker fuels are cheaper. I'll try to run down some references for both of these.
Regards,
Morgan
http://www.broadusa-inc.com/absorb.html
The machine described here uses lithium bromide and water. I think they used ammonia and some sort of chloride originally.
Basically heat is used to force the refrigerant out of solution. This serves the same function as the compressor in a conventional system.
I've been told that big diesel trucks that operate in cold climates have fuel tank heaters. Supposedly, they run lines from the engine cooling system through coils in the fuel tanks. Some poeple mix gasoline with diesel fuel to thin it out a bit for cold climates. DF #2 is the most common diesel but there is also a DF #1 that's made for cold climates.
Read someplace that some marine diesels will operate on thicker grades of fuel oil once they are warm. These engines are supposed to have some sort of a heater arrangment for the thicker fuel. This is done for reasons of economy as the thicker fuels are cheaper. I'll try to run down some references for both of these.
Regards,
Morgan
Michael H. Standart
Member
Morgan, thanks for that link. The info page is pretty short, but to the point.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Morgan Eric Ford
Guest
Here's a URL for a diesel fuel heater. These are probably intended for extreme locations like N.D. or Alaska.
http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_dfh_intro/r_dfh_intro.html
"The Merchant Marine Officer's Guide" discusses different engine types. According to this book, slow speed marine diesels are sometimes operated on bunker fuel. the procedure is to use bunker fuel when operating at a constant speed for a long time. When starting and manuevering they switch back to regular diesel. Sounds like bunker fuel can't handle changes in speed as well as regular diesel.
The same book says a large marine diesel can be brought on line in 15 minutes compared to several hours for a boiler/turbine plant. Some of the really big marine diesels turn over at 30 RPM!
http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_dfh_intro/r_dfh_intro.html
"The Merchant Marine Officer's Guide" discusses different engine types. According to this book, slow speed marine diesels are sometimes operated on bunker fuel. the procedure is to use bunker fuel when operating at a constant speed for a long time. When starting and manuevering they switch back to regular diesel. Sounds like bunker fuel can't handle changes in speed as well as regular diesel.
The same book says a large marine diesel can be brought on line in 15 minutes compared to several hours for a boiler/turbine plant. Some of the really big marine diesels turn over at 30 RPM!
Michael H. Standart
Member
Thanks Morgan. Really extreme locations such as you mentioned would make perfect sense for a heater. As cold as it can get in N.D. or Alaska, it's not unknown for fuel and lubricants to just about turn to jelly.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Colleen Collier
Member
Thank you for the sites. The illustrations were a help! 
I know my vehicle has a plug in heater but that is a "block heater".
I have heard stories from my dad, about patrolling the Russian boarder (Siberia) and they had to keep the Army vehicles running at all times, because the fuel would turn to jell if not, and one time it was so cold it did it even while the trucks were running. He never knew how cold that was, but I read that it was something like -60.
Next question is What is "bunker fuel?" Another crude form of diesel?
Thanks in advance. Colleen
I know my vehicle has a plug in heater but that is a "block heater". I have heard stories from my dad, about patrolling the Russian boarder (Siberia) and they had to keep the Army vehicles running at all times, because the fuel would turn to jell if not, and one time it was so cold it did it even while the trucks were running. He never knew how cold that was, but I read that it was something like -60.
Next question is What is "bunker fuel?" Another crude form of diesel?
Thanks in advance. Colleen
Mike Herbold
Member
Colleen:
I worked in Prudhoe Bay, Alaska throughout most of 1983-1984. In February 1984, we reached our coldest day of the tour, minus 68 F. It was not unusual at all to reach temperatures of minus 50 F. We either left the engines of our pickups running, or plugged into a "bull rail," which would keep the engine block worm and the oil from turning solid, and also run a small heater in the cab. This sounds like the block heater you were talking about. I suspect in your dad's case they kept the engines running because there was no place to plug in.
Even if we were plugged in all night, we would first start our trucks in the morning, and then go have breakfast, so that the engine had about a half hour to warm up.
What's really weird is that you actually get more snow in Big Bear than they do in that area of the Arctic. The oil fields around Prudhoe Bay are in an "Arctic desert." There is virtually no humidity, and only about two inches of snow annually. So there is not enough moisture in the snow to make a snowball. It was more like dandelion droppings, and every time the wind blew, the snow would kick up like a dustcloud. The same snow just keeps blowing back and forth.
These minus 50 and minus 60 degree temperatures were pure cold; if the wind came up, the "wind chill factor" was often over minus 100 F, and sometimes even off the charts. Even areas like Fairbanks, and the famous nearby suburb of North Pole, which are below the Arctic Circle, often reach minus 50. Their weather is more like some of the Great Lakes areas, though, with real snow.
I worked in Prudhoe Bay, Alaska throughout most of 1983-1984. In February 1984, we reached our coldest day of the tour, minus 68 F. It was not unusual at all to reach temperatures of minus 50 F. We either left the engines of our pickups running, or plugged into a "bull rail," which would keep the engine block worm and the oil from turning solid, and also run a small heater in the cab. This sounds like the block heater you were talking about. I suspect in your dad's case they kept the engines running because there was no place to plug in.
Even if we were plugged in all night, we would first start our trucks in the morning, and then go have breakfast, so that the engine had about a half hour to warm up.
What's really weird is that you actually get more snow in Big Bear than they do in that area of the Arctic. The oil fields around Prudhoe Bay are in an "Arctic desert." There is virtually no humidity, and only about two inches of snow annually. So there is not enough moisture in the snow to make a snowball. It was more like dandelion droppings, and every time the wind blew, the snow would kick up like a dustcloud. The same snow just keeps blowing back and forth.
These minus 50 and minus 60 degree temperatures were pure cold; if the wind came up, the "wind chill factor" was often over minus 100 F, and sometimes even off the charts. Even areas like Fairbanks, and the famous nearby suburb of North Pole, which are below the Arctic Circle, often reach minus 50. Their weather is more like some of the Great Lakes areas, though, with real snow.
Morgan Eric Ford
Guest
Here's some info about bunker C from a Canadian government web site
http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/whale2/bunker.html
What is Bunker C Fuel Oil?
"Bunker C" fuel oil is a term which has been used for many years to designate the most thick and sticky of the residual fuels. When steamships were coal-fired,"bunkers" was the home for the bins used to hold the coal. As marine diesel engines became prevalent, the term was carried over to include the liquid fuel tanks. At one time, the lighter fuel oils Bunker A and Bunker B were also available.
What does it look like?
Bunker "C" fuel oil is a sticky, black liquid similar in appearance and smell to asphalt sealing compounds. At 10° C it has a consistency of liquid honey or corn syrup. At 0° C it barely flows.
Where does it come from?
"Residual" fuel was originally defined as whatever liquid was left behind in the petroleum distillation unit after the removal of more valuable products like kerosene, diesel and naphtha. However, this type of fuel is no longer commonly available. Bunker "C" oil is currently produced by blending the oil remaining after the refining process with lighter oil.
What is it used for and why?
In addition to being used in the majority of large marine diesel engines, bunker oils are used in power generating stations, industrial boilers and furnaces, and pumping plants. Bunker oil is an inexpensive and readily available source of energy in many parts of the world.
Ships designed for bunker C can burn some grades of crude oil directly!
I spent a few months on the DEW line in the 1980's. many of the stores in Fairbanks, AK had electrical outlets in the parking lot so the customers could plug in their engine heaters in while shopping. I installed a block heater on my car when I was at Minot N.D. When I drove to California and people saw the electrical plug sticking out from the grill they assumed I had an electric car!
Regards,
Morgan
http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/whale2/bunker.html
What is Bunker C Fuel Oil?
"Bunker C" fuel oil is a term which has been used for many years to designate the most thick and sticky of the residual fuels. When steamships were coal-fired,"bunkers" was the home for the bins used to hold the coal. As marine diesel engines became prevalent, the term was carried over to include the liquid fuel tanks. At one time, the lighter fuel oils Bunker A and Bunker B were also available.
What does it look like?
Bunker "C" fuel oil is a sticky, black liquid similar in appearance and smell to asphalt sealing compounds. At 10° C it has a consistency of liquid honey or corn syrup. At 0° C it barely flows.
Where does it come from?
"Residual" fuel was originally defined as whatever liquid was left behind in the petroleum distillation unit after the removal of more valuable products like kerosene, diesel and naphtha. However, this type of fuel is no longer commonly available. Bunker "C" oil is currently produced by blending the oil remaining after the refining process with lighter oil.
What is it used for and why?
In addition to being used in the majority of large marine diesel engines, bunker oils are used in power generating stations, industrial boilers and furnaces, and pumping plants. Bunker oil is an inexpensive and readily available source of energy in many parts of the world.
Ships designed for bunker C can burn some grades of crude oil directly!
I spent a few months on the DEW line in the 1980's. many of the stores in Fairbanks, AK had electrical outlets in the parking lot so the customers could plug in their engine heaters in while shopping. I installed a block heater on my car when I was at Minot N.D. When I drove to California and people saw the electrical plug sticking out from the grill they assumed I had an electric car!
Regards,
Morgan
Colleen Collier
Member
Morgan. RE: electric car....That is California for you! (shrug).
I believed that there was something left once they got the diesel out, but, I didn't know what it was. With diesel fuel approaching $1.80 a gallon here, soon I will be lucky to use "Bunker fuel" instead. Colleen
I believed that there was something left once they got the diesel out, but, I didn't know what it was. With diesel fuel approaching $1.80 a gallon here, soon I will be lucky to use "Bunker fuel" instead. Colleen
I can remeber sitting at the pier because we hadn't heated the bunker C for the boiler. We use to carry about 200,000 gallons of it. Especially at night. Of if you would take a ship that had been sitting at the pier for a day or two you would have to reheat the whole system. It could take an hour or longer depending on the age of the system. I have also seen that stuff in the ocean. It is some nasty looking and smelling stuff. I am not one to get sea sick but I tell you what the smell of Bunker C and being hot and sweating may just do that to me. Add some 35 foot seas and you probably have a sure thing.
Erik
Erik
Mark Chirnside
Member
Diesel approaching only $1.80 a gallon!! That's only about £1 and petrol in Britain is £4 per gallon. You are SO lucky, even if you don't know it.
Steffen Reichel
Member
Before we loose further topic and discusse only about diesel prices....
Well, it seems that a single post will make you guess about diesel than any other word.
Dear Michael, excuse that I tried to fire to your 'blind six', but I had to. Without this, maybe unfair attack, you wouldn' t have joined this threat so enthousastical, isn't? You would have me considered as a small thick donkey, not able to watch behind the curtain!
But, as we all saw now, thanks to Morgan eric Ford, we found, that steam could be something to use also in airconditioning.
So you all were trapped, and I like to trapp people, as you will have me 'catched and rumbled' with your diesel knowledge. Of couse you got right, but as I tought you considered me as 'rivet counter', but I am not.
The DLM Project called modern steam has competed against diesel and in both the diesel was replaced by steam. Well, excuse Michael that they do not have the complete story in the web, but maybe this link will give you answer if you ask via e-Mail:
Rothornbahn - This was the first time, a modern steam engine was used. And the guys who knew the swiss volks, they would do this if it isn't the better. The swiss was the first, who made electricity only from natural resources, no nuclear power plant was build, the swiss were the first, who abandon steam and forced the use of electricity in railroad, and the swiss were the first who powered a hydrogenium propelled car .
Well, so the swiss guys would not use a steam engine, if it isn't the better compared to diesel. Their first guess, after a steam loco was going out of service to get a new diesel train. But their visitors had the demand for a steam train. So the DLM AG, mentiones above tried their best. First they considered what diesel trains can do and how long it will get to get them in service. After that they developed the steam engine, and the steam engine expeted the diesel train! You can see the loco at following site!
Same can be found at the steam ship, they reconstructed. Here again a modern type steam engine replaced the diesel with success.
so you will think now: What the hell this guy is allways talking about railroads, and what the hell are those silly guys belonging to the USA?
Well, here we meet again. If anyone of you comes to Florida, well, visit Disneys Magic Kindom, and see modern steam engines having doing their duty all day long, year round! The steam engines itself were not modern, but the boilers were... There were fired with disel, and if you askthe engineers, and could get in contact to the maintainance staff, the same reasons and advantages found in Switzerland were the reason why Disneys Steamers had survived!
Well, okay, you maybe right: Some of you push the start button and the diesel will set in motion, but larger, and most marine diesel I knew cannout act like this. The diesel loco I learn onto has a 1936 build MaK diesel, used in german submarines, and this diesel isn't build for locos, it's a marine engine! This diesel needs a preheating! Preheating means, that oil and colling water must warm up the engine and lubricating oil to about 60°C before anyone should open the starter valve. Yes, starter valve! Large diesels were often not started with electric starters, which turn the engine, no, they were stared by compressed air, which turns the engine, making it start by itself.
So why prehaeting, which you all do not know in this case. Well, those marine engines do not have the glow units to enlight the diesel in cool circumstances. Most people this, that the prehwat the diesel, but this is not true. Diesel will not realy have the need for heating, as you have found, by comparing car engines, except in very cool areas of this world. But, if you have a cold diesel and want it to start, the high compression need to enlight the diesel by compression can often not be done, so the diesel is enlighted by glowing units in the top, as it was explained to me, maybe my fault. After the diesel has reached sufficient temperature the glowing tip is not need anymore, because the engine will now enlight the diesel by selfignition during the high compression in the cylinder.
The MaK diesel has no glowing tips, so the diesel must be warm, to have the right temperature for self-ignition.
Large marine diesels also need this preheating, I do not know how military engines act, but I consider them not realy different, because the diesel has not much changed in the recent years. Okay, there are compressors, which provide addition air pressure into the cylinder, there are newer fuel pumps providing better pressure and thus better fuel usage, optimizing the fuel burning in the cylinder.
But I was not talking about 'old boiler', I was not talking about 'old engines', I was talking about modern steam eniges.
And if anyone hasn't seen a modern steam engine, he might be trapped in considering modern steam engines same to 'old' ones. But this is not true. If we compare Olympic steam engines (back to threads topic!) to other steam engines in service, we will find out, that Olympics engines were quite better, less fuel wasting and much more efficient. So even Titancis engines were, as Olympcis, a sign of great and successfull development and machinery knowledge, a sign for future.
Well, during the oil crisis, some ships used the heavy bunker oil C, which is close to raffinade waste, a thick, sticky thing, more compareable to asphalt thant to modern fuels. So here you must have a bunker heating, because to get this oil liquid enough to flow through the pips into the engine. If you will see pictures during the time, you can see it at the chimney top: Thick, blue-black smoke clouds arise, showing the burn of this thick oil. Many railroad locos used the same oil type to fire the boilers, but the longer flame ways, the more air in the combustion chamber make the smoke to a bright grey, showing the better use of this oil in 'long-flame' boilers, than in 'short-flame' boliers or diesel engines. Bunkel Oil C lead in many operation time to defects onto the diesels, because if the temperature of the diesel wasn't quite good, the oil got sticky again, leading to the fine moving part adhere together, and damaging the motion parts. Also it often produced so much heat inside the cylinder, that the stroke box oil was burned, too, resulting in a less lubricated surface, giving damage by the piston up-and down to the stroke. Also, if the oil was rinsing into the oil bath below the crank shaft, it was the most reported source for cloking the oil filters, fine lubrication lines as for less flow, because reducing the pump action of the main oil pump.
Today fine raffinade diesel is used, having these problems not, or never.
So military diesels may have not preheating units, or do have them and you just do not know. Cold iron in diesel engines is not allways 'not worse'.... so many diesels still today cannot be started just by pushing the button, and this is still today true, maybe except the military ones, which had to be in alert within seconds.
But (and this is still but!) today some boilers can do the same. Those quick-response boilers were developed for stretcar use, as the gasoline power was just the one to come, and later those boilers were build as starters for the military ships. Well, but this is past. Today the 'quick-response' boilers operate a little bit different, in having an auxillary burner and a small 'quick-response' boiler. In a water preheat exchange unit, the feed water for the main boiler is quickly prehaeted by the combining methode, so the feedwater enters the main bioler under pressure and temperatures above 100°C, thus with enlighting the main bruners the boiler will be quickly able, to 'make steam' for the engines, because the pressure will quickly rise and the small surface at the main burnes will absorb much heat, which will produce enough evaporation at the water/steam division drum at the boiler top, the superheaters are preheated, and with opening the operation valves, the steam from the division drum will flow through the superheatiung tubes and will quickly rise to 400°C... So many modern boilers will be able to come from cold in less than an hour. Long for a military ship, but discuseable for a 'non-military' ship, and we talk not about military ones, we talk about passenger ships! (or do you wish to compare Titanic or Olympic with those fat hulled black smoking iron coffins called battleships?? I guess you won't, so lets keep discussion close here!)
A 170 MW boiler plant is able to start from cold in approximately 4 hours, from cold it must repeat!!!! Consider please: 170 million watts, these are 17 million 100 watt bulbs enlight just in a second, after 4 hours waiting. Seldom ships were found wich so large power plants in their stomic! (I guess here we can only compare to military ships, were carriers have larger ones!) this means: Heat, power and after the preheating less fuel, because the boiler will hold temperature for many hours! (Here the circle closed to the DLM steam engine, which is a diesel oil burner, and is able to start the main burner without auxillary steam after 36 hours after burner shut down, so the main burner is enlighted and powers with steam from the own boiler... no diesel loco was able to act this way!)
So what we got is a principle, a principle which shows proof to be tried, lightly tuned to fit the modern demands. Modern household oil heating units have moderner standarts than many oil driven boilers anywhere. So here something has to been think about: Could this managemt not been incooperated into the main boilers, maybe used for ships? Of course, it could, as some recent studies have shown, which lead to the decission of the DLM to establish a project called modern steam!
So what I tried, is just to make you think about the possibility, not about the what is! As the diesel engine was build, none wanted to think about it as engine for cars, because to big, to rough, not powerfull enough.
and today? The diesel can easily compete with the common gasoline engine, because it is modern.
Why you think boilers are old the same? This means: considering a modern boiler as an oven for the house which is fired by brick wood or coal....
Will you little agree because you start to become a guess what I am thinking about?
Now we come to the engines, and you guys: Here I come. I have never studied engineersships, but I am very familiar with pratical things....
The most serious thing with recipoking steam engies is the lubricating part. Steam turbines have more tricky parts, like critical rotations, problems if the stema is not complete superheated, thus noit dry enough. Also steam turbines, have, als gasoline engines the backdraw to have the most shaft force only in a small 'window' of roations, lees rotation, less force, mor rotation and the curve will even sink. so to have a good power output at the propeller, you should use a turbine with elctrical transmission or a switching gear transmission. In electrical transmission the turbin propels a generator, ands this one drives the motor wich turns the propeller shaft. Fine adjustment of the rotation is possible, but with the power wasting due transmision and the problem of the maximum shaft force in only a small range of rotation will still persist.
The advantage of a turbine is the hydrodynamic bearing. The shaft will not 'lay' at the bearing surface, it will 'swim' onto a thin layer of lubricant oil, which is pressed through small holes filling the bearing surface with this layer, so lifting the shaft and making is turn easily. even a child can turn the turbine easily if hydrodynamic bearings are used.
But there is a large disadvantage: A turbine will not be able to turn opposite direction, turbins can only go in one direction, so a direction change gear is allways a must, or you need an extra backwards turbine, still today.
As we discussed before, recipoking engines do not have this problem and can be switched form forward to backward within an eyes blink (okay, just kidding!). The most ussuallly found disadavantage is the motin gear and the linkage and the difficult lubrication of the moving parts. But, diesel engines have this too.This disadvantage was solved by the DLM in the use of rollerbearings and fluid lubrication systems, like modern diesel engines have. If we know consider an engine, maybe smaller than Titanics engine, but with the ability of operating with more pressure and somewhat 'drier' steam, we can make the engine turn faster! The linkage we change into a modern valve linkage, which will have no motion linkage anymore, and then we encapsule the whole engine, like diesel engines are,too. Not the crankshaft will dipp into the oil at the bottom, a lubrication oil pump will spray oil to the bearings, and we can use as much modern bears as possible. Well, what do we have then? Isn't this a modern engine, which will not only use the dynamic force of the steam, as it will even use the expansion force?
It will have also the advantage of having during all ranges of round nearly the same force to the crank shaft (typical for steam engines!), and the ability to be flexible in its rotations by just switching the linkage. It will be maintainaceless as a diesel, but as powerfull as old steam engines, with the typical soft and smooth movement, and will be nearly noiseless. This you can find out is you come to switzerland an see the modern engine in the ship move, and have a look to the modern loco at the brienzer mountain railroad. The loco is a fast revolvering steam engine, whcih produces a smoot movement, which high power output, only ba adjusting the rotation speed above old steam engines, possible because of a new linkage with valves and the use of better lubricants and roller bearings.
-This was my intention, and again I will hope that you start to watch stema engines from another point of view, as you do till now. If you still consider it old, you will never agree, but maybe then you are far from reality, or do not want to make the mind free for this guess. But if you consider steam recipoking engines now as a posibility, maybe you will find out, that there are intentions to that guess, anyone should think about.
So my goal is reached, if any dieseloperator will now step back, looking more critical to his diesel and starts to compare. And I made that point if he is trapped just in a guess that I could have right, and he found himself scratching his head by thinking....
And: I did it before! I would not be so enthousisatic, if I had not seen the old engines, had not been in opartion staff of a modern power plant with steam turbins, had not been in the operational staff of emergency power units, diesel driven. Then I saw the project of DLM and found myself trappend in allways think of steam engiens as old and not able to compete with diesel. the guys at DLM, who answered friendly my questions, sending me information material, made me realy think about it. Sleepless nights I got, because it is something you will not believe, till I saw the modern steam loco climbing up the mountain, having a talk to the engineer (one man only, as for the diesel!) and had a night at the 'shop'.
Relay, that man drove the loco at the shop,fixed it, pulled the brake, refilled water and fuel and left for dress. The diesel guys moved on to plug the train to electrical heating, refilled fuel, and switched to auxillary power before the turned of the diesel and left for dressing. The steam engineer was just as fast as the diesel guys and at morning, he pushed a bruner to start, remove the fix, looses the brake and headed for the train. The diesel enginier, dismounted the auxillay power, checked battery load and started the diesels, and left soon after (!!) the steam engine. this is something you won't believe...
What about now with more large engines??? Realy impossible? Realy that large'? Relay that timewasting?
Maybe for military use, but for passenger ships we should consider this, before we talk about steam as 'old energy source'!!!
Well, it seems that a single post will make you guess about diesel than any other word.
Dear Michael, excuse that I tried to fire to your 'blind six', but I had to. Without this, maybe unfair attack, you wouldn' t have joined this threat so enthousastical, isn't? You would have me considered as a small thick donkey, not able to watch behind the curtain!
But, as we all saw now, thanks to Morgan eric Ford, we found, that steam could be something to use also in airconditioning.
So you all were trapped, and I like to trapp people, as you will have me 'catched and rumbled' with your diesel knowledge. Of couse you got right, but as I tought you considered me as 'rivet counter', but I am not.
The DLM Project called modern steam has competed against diesel and in both the diesel was replaced by steam. Well, excuse Michael that they do not have the complete story in the web, but maybe this link will give you answer if you ask via e-Mail:
Rothornbahn - This was the first time, a modern steam engine was used. And the guys who knew the swiss volks, they would do this if it isn't the better. The swiss was the first, who made electricity only from natural resources, no nuclear power plant was build, the swiss were the first, who abandon steam and forced the use of electricity in railroad, and the swiss were the first who powered a hydrogenium propelled car .
Well, so the swiss guys would not use a steam engine, if it isn't the better compared to diesel. Their first guess, after a steam loco was going out of service to get a new diesel train. But their visitors had the demand for a steam train. So the DLM AG, mentiones above tried their best. First they considered what diesel trains can do and how long it will get to get them in service. After that they developed the steam engine, and the steam engine expeted the diesel train! You can see the loco at following site!
Same can be found at the steam ship, they reconstructed. Here again a modern type steam engine replaced the diesel with success.
so you will think now: What the hell this guy is allways talking about railroads, and what the hell are those silly guys belonging to the USA?
Well, here we meet again. If anyone of you comes to Florida, well, visit Disneys Magic Kindom, and see modern steam engines having doing their duty all day long, year round! The steam engines itself were not modern, but the boilers were... There were fired with disel, and if you askthe engineers, and could get in contact to the maintainance staff, the same reasons and advantages found in Switzerland were the reason why Disneys Steamers had survived!
Well, okay, you maybe right: Some of you push the start button and the diesel will set in motion, but larger, and most marine diesel I knew cannout act like this. The diesel loco I learn onto has a 1936 build MaK diesel, used in german submarines, and this diesel isn't build for locos, it's a marine engine! This diesel needs a preheating! Preheating means, that oil and colling water must warm up the engine and lubricating oil to about 60°C before anyone should open the starter valve. Yes, starter valve! Large diesels were often not started with electric starters, which turn the engine, no, they were stared by compressed air, which turns the engine, making it start by itself.
So why prehaeting, which you all do not know in this case. Well, those marine engines do not have the glow units to enlight the diesel in cool circumstances. Most people this, that the prehwat the diesel, but this is not true. Diesel will not realy have the need for heating, as you have found, by comparing car engines, except in very cool areas of this world. But, if you have a cold diesel and want it to start, the high compression need to enlight the diesel by compression can often not be done, so the diesel is enlighted by glowing units in the top, as it was explained to me, maybe my fault. After the diesel has reached sufficient temperature the glowing tip is not need anymore, because the engine will now enlight the diesel by selfignition during the high compression in the cylinder.
The MaK diesel has no glowing tips, so the diesel must be warm, to have the right temperature for self-ignition.
Large marine diesels also need this preheating, I do not know how military engines act, but I consider them not realy different, because the diesel has not much changed in the recent years. Okay, there are compressors, which provide addition air pressure into the cylinder, there are newer fuel pumps providing better pressure and thus better fuel usage, optimizing the fuel burning in the cylinder.
But I was not talking about 'old boiler', I was not talking about 'old engines', I was talking about modern steam eniges.
And if anyone hasn't seen a modern steam engine, he might be trapped in considering modern steam engines same to 'old' ones. But this is not true. If we compare Olympic steam engines (back to threads topic!) to other steam engines in service, we will find out, that Olympics engines were quite better, less fuel wasting and much more efficient. So even Titancis engines were, as Olympcis, a sign of great and successfull development and machinery knowledge, a sign for future.
Well, during the oil crisis, some ships used the heavy bunker oil C, which is close to raffinade waste, a thick, sticky thing, more compareable to asphalt thant to modern fuels. So here you must have a bunker heating, because to get this oil liquid enough to flow through the pips into the engine. If you will see pictures during the time, you can see it at the chimney top: Thick, blue-black smoke clouds arise, showing the burn of this thick oil. Many railroad locos used the same oil type to fire the boilers, but the longer flame ways, the more air in the combustion chamber make the smoke to a bright grey, showing the better use of this oil in 'long-flame' boilers, than in 'short-flame' boliers or diesel engines. Bunkel Oil C lead in many operation time to defects onto the diesels, because if the temperature of the diesel wasn't quite good, the oil got sticky again, leading to the fine moving part adhere together, and damaging the motion parts. Also it often produced so much heat inside the cylinder, that the stroke box oil was burned, too, resulting in a less lubricated surface, giving damage by the piston up-and down to the stroke. Also, if the oil was rinsing into the oil bath below the crank shaft, it was the most reported source for cloking the oil filters, fine lubrication lines as for less flow, because reducing the pump action of the main oil pump.
Today fine raffinade diesel is used, having these problems not, or never.
So military diesels may have not preheating units, or do have them and you just do not know. Cold iron in diesel engines is not allways 'not worse'.... so many diesels still today cannot be started just by pushing the button, and this is still today true, maybe except the military ones, which had to be in alert within seconds.
But (and this is still but!) today some boilers can do the same. Those quick-response boilers were developed for stretcar use, as the gasoline power was just the one to come, and later those boilers were build as starters for the military ships. Well, but this is past. Today the 'quick-response' boilers operate a little bit different, in having an auxillary burner and a small 'quick-response' boiler. In a water preheat exchange unit, the feed water for the main boiler is quickly prehaeted by the combining methode, so the feedwater enters the main bioler under pressure and temperatures above 100°C, thus with enlighting the main bruners the boiler will be quickly able, to 'make steam' for the engines, because the pressure will quickly rise and the small surface at the main burnes will absorb much heat, which will produce enough evaporation at the water/steam division drum at the boiler top, the superheaters are preheated, and with opening the operation valves, the steam from the division drum will flow through the superheatiung tubes and will quickly rise to 400°C... So many modern boilers will be able to come from cold in less than an hour. Long for a military ship, but discuseable for a 'non-military' ship, and we talk not about military ones, we talk about passenger ships! (or do you wish to compare Titanic or Olympic with those fat hulled black smoking iron coffins called battleships?? I guess you won't, so lets keep discussion close here!)
A 170 MW boiler plant is able to start from cold in approximately 4 hours, from cold it must repeat!!!! Consider please: 170 million watts, these are 17 million 100 watt bulbs enlight just in a second, after 4 hours waiting. Seldom ships were found wich so large power plants in their stomic! (I guess here we can only compare to military ships, were carriers have larger ones!) this means: Heat, power and after the preheating less fuel, because the boiler will hold temperature for many hours! (Here the circle closed to the DLM steam engine, which is a diesel oil burner, and is able to start the main burner without auxillary steam after 36 hours after burner shut down, so the main burner is enlighted and powers with steam from the own boiler... no diesel loco was able to act this way!)
So what we got is a principle, a principle which shows proof to be tried, lightly tuned to fit the modern demands. Modern household oil heating units have moderner standarts than many oil driven boilers anywhere. So here something has to been think about: Could this managemt not been incooperated into the main boilers, maybe used for ships? Of course, it could, as some recent studies have shown, which lead to the decission of the DLM to establish a project called modern steam!
So what I tried, is just to make you think about the possibility, not about the what is! As the diesel engine was build, none wanted to think about it as engine for cars, because to big, to rough, not powerfull enough.
and today? The diesel can easily compete with the common gasoline engine, because it is modern.
Why you think boilers are old the same? This means: considering a modern boiler as an oven for the house which is fired by brick wood or coal....
Will you little agree because you start to become a guess what I am thinking about?
Now we come to the engines, and you guys: Here I come. I have never studied engineersships, but I am very familiar with pratical things....
The most serious thing with recipoking steam engies is the lubricating part. Steam turbines have more tricky parts, like critical rotations, problems if the stema is not complete superheated, thus noit dry enough. Also steam turbines, have, als gasoline engines the backdraw to have the most shaft force only in a small 'window' of roations, lees rotation, less force, mor rotation and the curve will even sink. so to have a good power output at the propeller, you should use a turbine with elctrical transmission or a switching gear transmission. In electrical transmission the turbin propels a generator, ands this one drives the motor wich turns the propeller shaft. Fine adjustment of the rotation is possible, but with the power wasting due transmision and the problem of the maximum shaft force in only a small range of rotation will still persist.
The advantage of a turbine is the hydrodynamic bearing. The shaft will not 'lay' at the bearing surface, it will 'swim' onto a thin layer of lubricant oil, which is pressed through small holes filling the bearing surface with this layer, so lifting the shaft and making is turn easily. even a child can turn the turbine easily if hydrodynamic bearings are used.
But there is a large disadvantage: A turbine will not be able to turn opposite direction, turbins can only go in one direction, so a direction change gear is allways a must, or you need an extra backwards turbine, still today.
As we discussed before, recipoking engines do not have this problem and can be switched form forward to backward within an eyes blink (okay, just kidding!). The most ussuallly found disadavantage is the motin gear and the linkage and the difficult lubrication of the moving parts. But, diesel engines have this too.This disadvantage was solved by the DLM in the use of rollerbearings and fluid lubrication systems, like modern diesel engines have. If we know consider an engine, maybe smaller than Titanics engine, but with the ability of operating with more pressure and somewhat 'drier' steam, we can make the engine turn faster! The linkage we change into a modern valve linkage, which will have no motion linkage anymore, and then we encapsule the whole engine, like diesel engines are,too. Not the crankshaft will dipp into the oil at the bottom, a lubrication oil pump will spray oil to the bearings, and we can use as much modern bears as possible. Well, what do we have then? Isn't this a modern engine, which will not only use the dynamic force of the steam, as it will even use the expansion force?
It will have also the advantage of having during all ranges of round nearly the same force to the crank shaft (typical for steam engines!), and the ability to be flexible in its rotations by just switching the linkage. It will be maintainaceless as a diesel, but as powerfull as old steam engines, with the typical soft and smooth movement, and will be nearly noiseless. This you can find out is you come to switzerland an see the modern engine in the ship move, and have a look to the modern loco at the brienzer mountain railroad. The loco is a fast revolvering steam engine, whcih produces a smoot movement, which high power output, only ba adjusting the rotation speed above old steam engines, possible because of a new linkage with valves and the use of better lubricants and roller bearings.
-This was my intention, and again I will hope that you start to watch stema engines from another point of view, as you do till now. If you still consider it old, you will never agree, but maybe then you are far from reality, or do not want to make the mind free for this guess. But if you consider steam recipoking engines now as a posibility, maybe you will find out, that there are intentions to that guess, anyone should think about.
So my goal is reached, if any dieseloperator will now step back, looking more critical to his diesel and starts to compare. And I made that point if he is trapped just in a guess that I could have right, and he found himself scratching his head by thinking....
And: I did it before! I would not be so enthousisatic, if I had not seen the old engines, had not been in opartion staff of a modern power plant with steam turbins, had not been in the operational staff of emergency power units, diesel driven. Then I saw the project of DLM and found myself trappend in allways think of steam engiens as old and not able to compete with diesel. the guys at DLM, who answered friendly my questions, sending me information material, made me realy think about it. Sleepless nights I got, because it is something you will not believe, till I saw the modern steam loco climbing up the mountain, having a talk to the engineer (one man only, as for the diesel!) and had a night at the 'shop'.
Relay, that man drove the loco at the shop,fixed it, pulled the brake, refilled water and fuel and left for dress. The diesel guys moved on to plug the train to electrical heating, refilled fuel, and switched to auxillary power before the turned of the diesel and left for dressing. The steam engineer was just as fast as the diesel guys and at morning, he pushed a bruner to start, remove the fix, looses the brake and headed for the train. The diesel enginier, dismounted the auxillay power, checked battery load and started the diesels, and left soon after (!!) the steam engine. this is something you won't believe...
What about now with more large engines??? Realy impossible? Realy that large'? Relay that timewasting?
Maybe for military use, but for passenger ships we should consider this, before we talk about steam as 'old energy source'!!!
Michael H. Standart
Member
Hi Steffan, that link you provided might be useful if I could read and speak Swiss. Unfortunately, I can't. The base problem with the DLM site is that it's basically advertising and hardly counts as the peer reviewed study or studies I'm looking for. Their claims may or may not be accurate, but until I see something in the way of material published by marine engineers with no interest in the matter one way or another, I hope you'll understand why I just don't believe it. Especially when the three books I have on naval architecture don't support their stand.
On the matter of reversing engines in the "blink of an eye," that's not really a problem anymore regardless of the plant arrangement if only because variable pitch propellors are widely available. The two diesel propelled LSDs I served on had them as do gas turbine propelled warships just about everywhere. Where veriable pitch isn't used, there is the reverse gearing you mentioned for the reduction gears which has been around for a very long time.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
On the matter of reversing engines in the "blink of an eye," that's not really a problem anymore regardless of the plant arrangement if only because variable pitch propellors are widely available. The two diesel propelled LSDs I served on had them as do gas turbine propelled warships just about everywhere. Where veriable pitch isn't used, there is the reverse gearing you mentioned for the reduction gears which has been around for a very long time.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Steffen Reichel
Member
Dear Michael,
I understand and respect your position, but I do not know why you must speak swiss to read the DLM Homepage. They provide alle informations in english as well, it is a complete bilingual homepage, one of the best I ever seen.
Of course I agree with you: Some facts and datas are missing, but their project isn't a secret, but I can understand if steam power is realy what they found, we both also like to wish none having lookimng over our shoulders!
Well, according to the books I have and use their claims for railroadsteam engines would not be much attractive, because seems impossible, but (yes, a but again!) I forget nearly all I have learned and known before, as I saw this engine craeling mountainup. You won't believe it, till you see...
I sat back so to bud, scratching my eyes like crasy, as I saw those engines. They nearly made a steam locomotive an easy one man toy!
They engine of montreux is even more harder:
The guy at the bridge has a lever, pushing forward: Forward thrust up, pulling back: backward thrust, braking power, reverse drive!
Thats all! It remembered me to a childrens electical car.... This is all the guy at the bridge needs, just the steer-wheel and that lever.
Now compare to the marine engines and compare.
Realy, I was hard before eating up all those books, because they seemed worthless. But today I understand: Modern technology in steam archicture isn't a great trick. The 'quick-response' boilers were developed as the steam street trucks had to compete with the new and increasing gasoline street cars. In past the were high technology, but today nearly forgotten, but for some power plant the were used still today to deliver quick and fast the required steam for the common water tube boiler... New technology? Not realy, only in material and manufacturing.
How good were Titancis engines insulated? I guess not realy much, but a completely insulated boiler, insulated steam transportation tubes as today provide the posibility to deliver steam over ranges of several douzen kilometers without realy high loss of pressure and temperature! Also efficiency of an insulated boiler is much better, than the old steel boxes! Now we come to the engine: The capsuled engine used at the steam loco is something new, because the cylinder is much better lubricated and insulated, but both engines lacking a complete capsulation of the motion gear, which is still visible, as advantage for the visitors to show them: Yes, here realy a steam engine is operating.
But their final destination is to build a steam engine, which is cvompletely encapsuled, like today diesel or gasoline engines, were the motion gear is below cylinders in a steel frame capsuled. This can be done with the modern steam engines too.
So you won't believe it, I agree, because I was on your side. But, since I saw those engines, I could not be anymore on your side, because they realy did it!
If there is a claim you do not understand, feel free to ask, and maybe I can help you.
Well, I agree with the turbine propulsion plants: You will need commonly a gear, to switch speed and direction, and here it is regardless if gas turbines or steam turbines are used, but: gas turbines respond a little bitt more quick to power changes, than steam turbines can do, also most gas turbines are not that tricky if changes in round counts appear, becaused can be operated on a wide range of rotations without harm, many steam turbine cannot...
A word at the end, one my teacher told me:
The goal of higher education is not believing in things written in books!
I understand and respect your position, but I do not know why you must speak swiss to read the DLM Homepage. They provide alle informations in english as well, it is a complete bilingual homepage, one of the best I ever seen.
Of course I agree with you: Some facts and datas are missing, but their project isn't a secret, but I can understand if steam power is realy what they found, we both also like to wish none having lookimng over our shoulders!
Well, according to the books I have and use their claims for railroadsteam engines would not be much attractive, because seems impossible, but (yes, a but again!) I forget nearly all I have learned and known before, as I saw this engine craeling mountainup. You won't believe it, till you see...
I sat back so to bud, scratching my eyes like crasy, as I saw those engines. They nearly made a steam locomotive an easy one man toy!
They engine of montreux is even more harder:
The guy at the bridge has a lever, pushing forward: Forward thrust up, pulling back: backward thrust, braking power, reverse drive!
Thats all! It remembered me to a childrens electical car.... This is all the guy at the bridge needs, just the steer-wheel and that lever.
Now compare to the marine engines and compare.
Realy, I was hard before eating up all those books, because they seemed worthless. But today I understand: Modern technology in steam archicture isn't a great trick. The 'quick-response' boilers were developed as the steam street trucks had to compete with the new and increasing gasoline street cars. In past the were high technology, but today nearly forgotten, but for some power plant the were used still today to deliver quick and fast the required steam for the common water tube boiler... New technology? Not realy, only in material and manufacturing.
How good were Titancis engines insulated? I guess not realy much, but a completely insulated boiler, insulated steam transportation tubes as today provide the posibility to deliver steam over ranges of several douzen kilometers without realy high loss of pressure and temperature! Also efficiency of an insulated boiler is much better, than the old steel boxes! Now we come to the engine: The capsuled engine used at the steam loco is something new, because the cylinder is much better lubricated and insulated, but both engines lacking a complete capsulation of the motion gear, which is still visible, as advantage for the visitors to show them: Yes, here realy a steam engine is operating.
But their final destination is to build a steam engine, which is cvompletely encapsuled, like today diesel or gasoline engines, were the motion gear is below cylinders in a steel frame capsuled. This can be done with the modern steam engines too.
So you won't believe it, I agree, because I was on your side. But, since I saw those engines, I could not be anymore on your side, because they realy did it!
If there is a claim you do not understand, feel free to ask, and maybe I can help you.
Well, I agree with the turbine propulsion plants: You will need commonly a gear, to switch speed and direction, and here it is regardless if gas turbines or steam turbines are used, but: gas turbines respond a little bitt more quick to power changes, than steam turbines can do, also most gas turbines are not that tricky if changes in round counts appear, becaused can be operated on a wide range of rotations without harm, many steam turbine cannot...
A word at the end, one my teacher told me:
The goal of higher education is not believing in things written in books!
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