Lucky Forte
Guest
Inger, With all due respect....There are just some things that no one will ever really know for sure. Opinion is just that and it is based only on lack of evidence and is therefore only speculation.
The Jack Phillips/Harold Bride picture
- Thread starter Hydie Cheung
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- harold bride
Lucky Forte
Guest
P.S. I am not a member of a debate team and am old enough to come to my own conclusions unless evidence is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Parks Stephenson
Member
Lucky,
Your opinion runs counter to that of Bride's own family, including Harold's own sister. If you're comfortable with that, then good luck to you.
Parks
Your opinion runs counter to that of Bride's own family, including Harold's own sister. If you're comfortable with that, then good luck to you.
Parks
Inger Sheil
Member
Sorry Lucky - an opinion based on flimsy or flawed evidence, as opposed to one based on more substantive material, is not worth the ink it's penned with or the bandwith it takes up. The view that this is not Bride is not based on 'lack of evidence' - it is based on evidence - the captioning by Brown, and a categoric statement by Bride himself. Unless, as I say, you think he lied under oath, for no discernable motive you have produced, and with no evidence to back up this insinuation that he lied? This particular furphy has unfortunately gained widespread currency, so needs to be tackled. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But not all opinions are equal. I prefer to draw my conclusions based on where the bulk of the historical evidence lies - particularly when it is contradicted by nothing more than a subjective interpretation of a visual source that is belied by other sources.
Parks Stephenson
Member
"Lucky,"
You've been critical of the reasons given by those who think that the person in the Adriatic photo is not Bride. Would you care to share the reason(s) why you so passionately believe he is?
Would this have anything to do with Lucy Bride?
Parks
You've been critical of the reasons given by those who think that the person in the Adriatic photo is not Bride. Would you care to share the reason(s) why you so passionately believe he is?
Would this have anything to do with Lucy Bride?
Parks
Lucky Forte
Guest
Well, No one has any real evidence and it seems to be here say. I can't say one way or the other for sure and that it my point. Brown said...family members say....I think it looks like Harold Bride in the picture and that is all I'm going to say on the subject. I wasn't there at the time the photo was taken and neither were you or anyone else for that matter. We all know that contradictory points are in order for these post as everyone has some info or thoughts that differ from other people that post here. That is why we give our input. I respect others opinion as I expect others to respect mine as well. We are all entitled to different views and no one should attack an individual for posting theirs. I say it again and for the last time.."It looks like Harold Bride in the photo to me". Enough Said. Have a great day! Peace!
Lucky Forte
Guest
P.S. As a matter of fact this whole incident has had twist and turns with a lot of unanswered questions that may never be answered. Some say this and some say that. Who really knows why the disaster happened the way it did and who or what could have prevented it. Bits and pieces of fact or fiction remains around every turn that we can only try to bring together to make some kind of sense from the turn of events that took place. We find out every day something interesting has unfolded about the Titanic. My ears and eyes have always been opened to the reality of it all but I have my own mind to think things through according to facts that are presented. One can tell a story to a room full of spectators and my guess is that there will be many different views on the subject or in this case ... a picture of what is to be believed or not believed to be Harold Bride himself.
Inger Sheil
Member
Sigh -
'No one has any real evidence'?
Browne took the photo. His statement counts as evidence.
Bride is the one purportedly IN the photo. He says he never met Philips before they joined the Titanic. That counts as evidence as well.
The Bride family knew him better than anyone, and have access to more photographic reference material than the public. I'd take their views into consideration in the 'expert witness' category!
As opposed to that, we have a viewpoint based on nothing more than subjective personal opinion that it looks like Bride, and a suggestion that he lied under oath about having met Philips - for no given motive, or reason. This flies in the face of what is, according to historical methodology, evidence.
To counter an opinion with historical material and to point to flaws in an argument is not to 'attack an individual.' This is an academic debate - it is not a personal attack.
'No one has any real evidence'?
Browne took the photo. His statement counts as evidence.
Bride is the one purportedly IN the photo. He says he never met Philips before they joined the Titanic. That counts as evidence as well.
The Bride family knew him better than anyone, and have access to more photographic reference material than the public. I'd take their views into consideration in the 'expert witness' category!
As opposed to that, we have a viewpoint based on nothing more than subjective personal opinion that it looks like Bride, and a suggestion that he lied under oath about having met Philips - for no given motive, or reason. This flies in the face of what is, according to historical methodology, evidence.
To counter an opinion with historical material and to point to flaws in an argument is not to 'attack an individual.' This is an academic debate - it is not a personal attack.
Hydie Cheung
Guest
Hello Parks,
What you mentioned about you and Mr. Sinclair's new book interested me. If you have any further news regarding to the publishing date or whatsoever useful information, may you inform us in the future, please? Thanks a lot! =D
And regarding to the controversies on this picture of Mr. Phillips, I agree on what Ing said on previous posts. It's quite unreasonable to say the man on the right is Mr. Harold Bride when Father Browne stated their identities so surely and clearly on his album as and only as:
"Mr. Jack Phillips (on left), who was lost on the Titanic, taken shortly before his transfer from the 'Adriatie'."
He never mentioned the identity of the man on the right.
- Hydie
What you mentioned about you and Mr. Sinclair's new book interested me. If you have any further news regarding to the publishing date or whatsoever useful information, may you inform us in the future, please? Thanks a lot! =D
And regarding to the controversies on this picture of Mr. Phillips, I agree on what Ing said on previous posts. It's quite unreasonable to say the man on the right is Mr. Harold Bride when Father Browne stated their identities so surely and clearly on his album as and only as:
"Mr. Jack Phillips (on left), who was lost on the Titanic, taken shortly before his transfer from the 'Adriatie'."
He never mentioned the identity of the man on the right.
- Hydie
Parks Stephenson
Member
For my part, I'm satisfied. If the family's assessment is not enough, then I'll leave the nature of "evidence" to deeper thinkers than myself.
Parks
Parks
Kritina Johnston
Member
Well, unless the both of them just happened to be in the same port on the same day, and just happened to run into each other, wound up on board the Adriatic having a smoke by a lifeboat, and they just HAPPENED to be snapped by a photog several years before the Titanic, but Harold just HAPPENED not to remember having met Jack before, I just don't know how this photo could be of the both of them together.
The issue of identity in this photo was actually also addressed in the Commutator, in regards to an article about Bride. One of the interesting points made was that this photo could not have been taken on the Titanic because the chocks for the lifeboat were not the same. And if I remember right, it was pointed out that these chocks looked similar to ones on the Adriatic, and this was before Browne's photos were made widely known. So, historical detective work was already on top of this one.
Never thought there could be so much controversy over one photo...and please do keep us informed of the publication date of the Bride book, Mr. Stephenson.
The issue of identity in this photo was actually also addressed in the Commutator, in regards to an article about Bride. One of the interesting points made was that this photo could not have been taken on the Titanic because the chocks for the lifeboat were not the same. And if I remember right, it was pointed out that these chocks looked similar to ones on the Adriatic, and this was before Browne's photos were made widely known. So, historical detective work was already on top of this one.
Never thought there could be so much controversy over one photo...and please do keep us informed of the publication date of the Bride book, Mr. Stephenson.
Inger Sheil
Member
I seem to remember that there was a detailed analysis of the background when this photo came up for discussion before in an online forum - this was when the woman claiming to be the current life reincarnation of Harold Bride's wife was insisting that, all evidence to the contrary, this was Philips and Bride and it was taken on the Titanic (!)
Parks Stephenson
Member
Hydie and Kritina,
I promise that I will keep you updated whenever I can.
Parks
I promise that I will keep you updated whenever I can.
Parks
Fiona Nitschke
Member
Thanks for that tantalising snippet of information on a book or books that might soon be, Parks. Will await either outcome with eager anticipation. Great stuff on Bride's Marconi uniform too, so count me as another interested in this 'minutiae'.
Lucky, while I agree regarding the importance of keeping an open mind, this is definitely an instance where I find the evidence, from primary contemporary sources, completely convincing.
Cheers,
F
Lucky, while I agree regarding the importance of keeping an open mind, this is definitely an instance where I find the evidence, from primary contemporary sources, completely convincing.
Cheers,
F
Lucky Forte
Guest
Attention:
For the record I checked out some books and did some research and now I am 100% sure that the photo is indeed of Phillips and Bride without a doubt. It is in a book called TITANIC Triumph and Tragedy....second edition by John P. Eaton and Charles A. Haas and is located at the top left corner on page 63. Anyone wanting me to send it I would be glad to e-mail the scanned attachment and hope that you could see the document, if not you can find the book as I did, probably in your local main library. So Parks I may not believe my lunch dates from now on...Brides family seems to be misinformed. By the way Father Francis M. Browne does get credit for the photo. Inger I did see the real evidence in the book and it is a Non-fiction 352 page mountain of information packed with photos. This one states that the ships two wireless operators John (Jack) Phillips (left) and Harold Bride share a smoke on Adriatic's boat dock prior to their transfer to Titanic. P.S. They obviously met prior to the maiden voyage of the Titanic.
For the record I checked out some books and did some research and now I am 100% sure that the photo is indeed of Phillips and Bride without a doubt. It is in a book called TITANIC Triumph and Tragedy....second edition by John P. Eaton and Charles A. Haas and is located at the top left corner on page 63. Anyone wanting me to send it I would be glad to e-mail the scanned attachment and hope that you could see the document, if not you can find the book as I did, probably in your local main library. So Parks I may not believe my lunch dates from now on...Brides family seems to be misinformed. By the way Father Francis M. Browne does get credit for the photo. Inger I did see the real evidence in the book and it is a Non-fiction 352 page mountain of information packed with photos. This one states that the ships two wireless operators John (Jack) Phillips (left) and Harold Bride share a smoke on Adriatic's boat dock prior to their transfer to Titanic. P.S. They obviously met prior to the maiden voyage of the Titanic.
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