Wilde during collision and sinking

[Inger Sheil]

You're probably thinking of the following piece of Lightoller's inquiry testimony, Adam:

13819. You were engaged on this work. I want to realise how long you were engaged on it? - Well, I really could not say what time the after boats were finished uncovering. Knowing that the Third Officer was there in charge I did not bother so much about that as the forward ones, and about the time I had finished seeing the men distributed round the deck, and the boat covers well under way and everything going smoothly, I then enquired of the Chief Officer whether we should carry on and swing out.

13820. And what did Mr. Wilde say about that - what were the orders? - I am under the impression that Mr. Wilde said "No," or "Wait," something to that effect, and meeting the Commander, I asked him, and he said, ""Yes, swing out."

13821. And did you get that done? - Yes, on the port side. I did not go to the starboard side again.

Or the following (again, from Lightoller)

13872. What was the order? - After I had swung out No. 4 boat I asked the Chief Officer should we put the women and children in, and he said "No." I left the men to go ahead with their work and found the Commander, or I met him and I asked him should we put the women and children in, and the Commander said "Yes, put the women and children in and lower away." That was the last order I received on the ship.

13873. Was that, as you understood it, a general order for the boats? - Yes, a general order.

13874. Again, I should like to have the time fixed. Is that after these events you have described about boat No. 4? - No; previous to any swinging out, when No. 4 was almost uncovered; in fact, the canvas cover was off. They were taking the falls out and I think they were in the act of taking the strong back out, and the next movement to be executed would be swinging the boat out. So before any delay had occurred I asked the Commander, as I say, should we lower away.

 

[Adam McGuirk]

Yep, thats it Inger. I guess it didn't happen at one particular boat, but to all boats in general. Thaks alot.
Adam

 

[Tarn Stephanos]

Dr Ballard is carrying on the myth in "Return to the Titanic" by saying 'virtually nothing is known about what Officer Wilde did that night'



regards


tarn Stephanos

 

[David G. Brown]

There is more money to be made in myth than in reality.

Wilde was apparently awakened by the accident and went to the bridge immediately following. He then went forward to inspect the forepeak and see flooding for himself. Wilde then came back to the bridge to make a report just before the carpenter arrived. These two reports seem to have convinced Smith that Titanic was sinking. Later, Wilde supervised the overall loading/launching of the lifeboats. Wilde had a full night doing his job.

--David G. Brown

 

[Inger Sheil]

Sorry to hear that, Tarn. Wilde's actions are no more poorly documented than many others who did not survive - Murdoch's are only marginally better known, for example, and much of that material relates to what occured on the Bridge during and after the collision. We might not have a tremendously detailed timeline for his actions, but there's still quite a bit of evidence to make the statement that 'virtually nothing is known' quite innacurate. The biggest question mark, IMHO, is over his whereabouts at the very end after the launch of C - there is some evidence, however, in the form of the Portrush letter Senan Molony located and an article I found that suggest that he was last seen smoking a cigarette shortly before the end.

Speaking of the Portrush letter - Molony has had a tremendous breakthrough in investigating the background of the letter, and I'm hoping to update the 'On Watch' website with new images and data connected with it soon.

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

According to the Inquiries, Wilde was reported at:
#8 according to Lightoller & Crawford
#14 according to Poingdestre
#2 Boxhall & Johnson
Collapsible D according to Lightoller
Collapsible C according to Rowe

There are other accounts refering to the "Chief Officer", that *might* be Wilde, but there is no way of knowing for sure. It is definite that sometimes "Chief Officer" refers to Wilde, sometimes to Murdoch.

 

[Inger Sheil]

Joughlin also has him at Boat 10:

quote:

6274. (Mr. Laing - To the Witness.) With regard to questions which have already been asked you about your boat No. 10, you, as I understand, were captain of that boat and had a crew of some seven hands allotted to No. 10? - That was only out of the kitchen department.

6275. Seven of your department were allotted? - That is seven out of the kitchen and the bakery and butchers' department. That does not constitute the crew.

6276. You were the captain and there were seven of your department allotted to that boat? - Seven out of three departments, that is the cooking, baking, and butchering departments.

6277. When you got up on the boat deck you were there, and were your seven people there too? - Yes.

6278. And was Mr. Wilde the Chief Officer, there? - Yes.

6279. And was Mr. Wilde having this boat filled with women and children? - Yes, those were his orders.

6280. Were his orders being carried out? - Yes.

quote:

5942. (The Solicitor-General.) It may be convenient, to remind your Lordship that the next one to it, No. 12, was the one that the man Poingdestre was in, and the next one to that, No. 14, is the one that Morris and Scarrott were in, and this one we have not dealt with. (To the Witness.) Did you go to your boat, No. 10? - Yes.

5943. And what did you find was the situation there? - Everything orderly. The Chief Officer was there.

5944. Is that Mr. Wilde? - Yes, Mr. Wilde.

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

Hi, Inger!

Yes, I know Joughin lists him at 10. For a number of reasons, I think Joughin was wrong. Note - Joughin himself doesn't introduce Wilde's name, the Solicitor does. Joughin just agrees.

Also, both Buley and Evans testify to Murdoch at #10.

This is one of the cases I mentioned, confusion as to *who* the "Chief Officer" at the boat was.

 

[Inger Sheil]

Interesting point, Bill. Joughlin might have been less likely to distinguish between the two of them than the deck crew. However, given that we have evidence for Wilde at other aft portside boats, I think it very possible that Joughlin was correct. As you know, after the above exchange Joughlin used Wilde's name a few more times:

quote:

5946. What was happening, how far had things got? - They were getting the boat ready for getting the passengers in, and Mr. Wilde shouted out for the stewards to keep the people back, to keep the men back, but there was no necessity for it. The men kept back themselves, and we made a line and passed the ladies and children through.

5947. Who made the line? - The stewards mostly - stewards and seamen; they were all together.

5948. I think I caught you to say that though Mr. Wilde gave the order to keep the men back there was really no necessity, they kept back themselves? - Yes.

Joughlin was a transferee from the Olympic, and presumably would have had the opportunity to acquaint himself with Wilde during department inspections. Buley, coming from the RN, seems to have been more confused about rank, and consistently refers to 'Chief Officer Murdoch'. He would have spent more time under Murdoch as Chief Officer - unlike Joughlin, who had spent more time under Wilde in that capacity.​

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

We also have the issue of - what uniform was Murdoch wearing? Having been temporarily 'bumped down' from the C.O. position, did Murdoch go to the trouble of removing his stripes on his uniforms, when he'd just have to put them back on within weeks? No way of telling.

I do believe Wilde was, at some point, near almost all of the port boats, as was Lightoller - even though the existing accounts do not mention them there. But I have to lean toward the testimony of the two seamen, who, IMO, are more likely to have worked with Murdoch than a steward, and more likely to recognize him personally, than by his uniform.

But unless more credible accounts pop out of the woodwork, we'll never know!

 

[Steve Krienke]

All,

Correct me if I am wrong, I read somewhere Murdoch and Wilde were last seen by Officer Lightoller working on boat A I believe?? I dont know what boat exactely it was...but I do remember reading somewhere Lights saw the two working on a boat, then like Lightoller, they were washed off, never to be seen again...

Steve Krienke,
Krienkeboy@hotmail.com

 

[Inger Sheil]

Hallo Steve -

Lightoller did say he saw Murdoch working on Collapsible A, but not Wilde.

At the British Inquiry, he testified that:

quote:

14766. (Mr. Holmes - To the Witness.) Can you tell me the last that you saw of Mr. Wilde before the ship went down? - The last I remember seeing of Mr. Wilde was quite a long time before the ship went down.
14767. And Mr. Murdoch? - Mr. Murdoch I saw practically at the actual moment that I went under water.

14768. Can you tell me where he was? - He was then working at the forward fall on the starboard side forward; that is the fall to connect to the collapsible boat.

In a letter to Ada Murdoch dated 24 April 1912, he wrote:

quote:

I was practically the last man, and certainly the last officer, to see Mr. Murdoch. He was then endeavouring to launch the starboard forward collapsible boat. I had already got mine from off the top of our quarters. You will understand when I say that I was working the the port side of the ship, and Mr. Murdoch was principally engaged on the starboard side of the ship, filling and launching the boats.

Having got my boat down off the top of the house, and there being no time to open it, I left it and ran across to the starboard side, still on top of the quarters. I was then practically looking down on your husband and his men. He was working hard, personally assisting, overhauling the forward boat's fall. At this moment the ship dived, and we were all in the water.

While he wasn't specific at the British Inquiry as to what exactly Wilde was doing when Lightoller saw him last, there is some slight evidence that he may have seen the Chief Officer smoking a cigarette shortly before the forward part of the boat deck went under. Although not specific that Lightoller was the source for his information, an employee of a club frequented by merchant mariners in New York, John Smith, said that this was where Wilde was last seen. Smith - who ahd also known Wilde - had spoken to Lightoller about the disaster. A British newspaper also made the claim that Lightoller last saw Wilde smoking a cigarette very shortly before the end, although the article does not specifically say if Lightoller was the source for this information.​

 

[Steve Krienke]

Ms. Sheil,

So in my play, I'm not that far yet, but it never hurts to look ahead, I could show Murdoch working on the boat...what would I do with Wilde...seems kinda wierd to have the chief officer standing there smoking eh?

If you'd like, you can contact me privately?

Thank you,
Steve Krienke
Krienkeboy@hotmail.com

 

[Inger Sheil]

It depends on how strictly you want to stick to events from Lightoller's POV. It can't be proven that Lightoller was the source for the story about Wilde last being seen with a cigarette. If you wanted to conservative in your interpretation of the data, you could last place Wilde at C or D. Or you could assume his was somewhere in the vicinity of A or B, and use literary licence in placing him there. It's up to you, but I would not consider it too much of an aberration if he was shown working at the last of the boats in what is, after all, a work of fiction and not a doco.

 

[Steve Krienke]

Who could I have him interact with...Smith is always a candiate...or Mr. Moody...I suppose anyone..I really want to make people sit back in the chairs and realize what really went on that nite...without playing the Cameron game..so far I am doing a good job of showing people what really happend!

Thanks,
Steve Krienke