Titanic Sub Missing

[Steven Christian]

I only hope they went quick. I don't see the value of getting into the details. I don't see anybody discussing the other 180,000 people that died that day.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I only hope they went quick. I don't see the value of getting into the details.

I agree to that on principle, but are we really as self-righteous as we like to believe? The problem is that in out heart of hearts, a lot of us (if not all) want to know the grisly details because of that morbid streak that is present in most of us, but to which we seldom admit. That is the reason why TV series like Mayday (aka Air Crash Investigation) are so avidly watched and makers of docu-dramas about Hiroshima (BBC, no less), 9/11 etc provide the graphic details thay they know will be expected by their audience. Even disaster feature films need to be "realistic" apart from being well made in order to be successful, even if the more gory details are often edited to appease the more "humane" folk among us.

Even here on ET, we have discussed about how various victims of the Titanic disaster could have died, ranging from being maimed by falling onto jagged edges, crushed by falling debris, freezing to death in the water and even the possibility of a few who might have lived for up to a minute trapped in the dark in their enclosed cabins in the stern till their air pockets were compressed and expelled by the flooding. Those victims included men, women and children. Compared with those painful deaths, those on board the Titan submersible had a mercifully instantaneous and painless exit when it imploded. Yes, I know tht the difference is that almost all survivors and their then immediate family were naturally gone by the time ET came iinto being; but their descendants are contemporaneous, just like the families and friends of the Titan victims.

So, at the end of the day it all depends on how one looks at it.

 

[JesseK]

Well stated Arun. Death is as common as life, and in fact is half of the cycle of life.
I haven't seen anything morbid or disrespectful here, but I guess when I or someone else says "did they turn to mush ?" that might be crude or offensive to some. They were horrifying, unique deaths and I don't think we should shrink from examining them, I think the only real questions are if any recognizable parts remained, and if the hull failure was instant or creeping. We all hope it was instant but that remains to be seen, and there is not enough info to speculate about that either way.

 

[JesseK]

Here is a good rundown for anyone interest in the looming legal/liability aspects

 

[Mike Spooner]

Question: How many other similar explorer subs have been lost over the last 50 years?

 

[Steven Christian]

I agree to that on principle, but are we really as self-righteous as we like to believe? The problem is that in out heart of hearts, a lot of us (if not all) want to know the grisly details because of that morbid streak that is present in most of us, but to which we seldom admit. That is the reason why TV series like Mayday (aka Air Crash Investigation) are so avidly watched and makers of docu-dramas about Hiroshima (BBC, no less), 9/11 etc provide the graphic details thay they know will be expected by their audience. Even disaster feature films need to be "realistic" apart from being well made in order to be successful, even if the more gory details are often edited to appease the more "humane" folk among us.

Even here on ET, we have discussed about how various victims of the Titanic disaster could have died, ranging from being maimed by falling onto jagged edges, crushed by falling debris, freezing to death in the water and even the possibility of a few who might have lived for up to a minute trapped in the dark in their enclosed cabins in the stern till their air pockets were compressed and expelled by the flooding. Those victims included men, women and children. Compared with those painful deaths, those on board the Titan submersible had a mercifully instantaneous and painless exit when it imploded. Yes, I know tht the difference is that almost all survivors and their then immediate family were naturally gone by the time ET came iinto being; but their descendants are contemporaneous, just like the families and friends of the Titan victims.

So, at the end of the day it all depends on how one looks at it.

I don't know about being self righteous. Maybe that's the case. For me personally I just don't see the value of getting into the gritty details. Not that it bothers me. I've been always able to put what I've seen out of my mind. It would only affect me if I was responsible for what happened. But some of the things I've seen I don't discuss because I would hate for the details to get back to their families. Discussing historical facts is one thing. I've read many things in history that would curdle your blood. But to go into gory details of people who just died serves no purpose to me. It's still too soon.

 

[Dave Gittins]

If you can get into it, there's a very clear account of Titan's design problems here. The Maverick Design Choices That May Have Doomed Titan

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Here is a good rundown for anyone interest in the looming legal/liability aspects

Don't hold your breath on some of them going in favor of the planitiffs. If the people on the sub signed waivers of liability, then depending on the jurisdiction, the plantiffs may end up with a whole lotta "Tough luck. They literally signed their rights away...and yours as well"

Caveat: All those waivers may be rendered null and void by a new precedent being set, or an old one being dusted off and cited by a sharp advocate.

Stay tuned!

 

[Steven Christian]

Don't hold your breath on some of them going in favor of the planitiffs. If the people on the sub signed waivers of liability, then depending on the jurisdiction, the plantiffs may end up with a whole lotta "Tough luck. They literally signed their rights away...and yours as well"

Caveat: All those waivers may be rendered null and void by a new precedent being set, or an old one being dusted off and cited by a sharp advocate.

Stay tuned!

I could be wrong but I don't see much happening with this. It's a first world problem that doesn't really mean much to society as a whole. Rich people taking risks (which is their right) doesn't affect anybody else. In other words...who really cares. They were informed of the risks and signed waivers. Besides there wont be much left to get once the lawyers get their cut sorting all this out. It wasn't that valuable of a company in todays world.

 

[JesseK]

Don't hold your breath on some of them going in favor of the planitiffs. If the people on the sub signed waivers of liability, then depending on the jurisdiction, the plantiffs may end up with a whole lotta "Tough luck. They literally signed their rights away...and yours as well"

Caveat: All those waivers may be rendered null and void by a new precedent being set, or an old one being dusted off and cited by a sharp advocate.

Stay tuned!

I am no legal beagle and that aspect doesn't interest me all that much, and 3 of the 4 victims were billionaires so its not like I am rooting to see them get some $$. I do know that if there is fraud/deceit involved that would be legal grounds for overturning the waiver ,, And for that matter, all sorts of legal documents, whether they be a will, prenuptial or whatever, get challenged and voided all the time.

The one aspect of this that potentially interests me the most is discovery ect, some things about design/construction/operation may come to light that otherwise would not have.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

But to go into gory details of people who just died serves no purpose to me. It's still too soon.

Absolutely right and that - being to soon after the Titan disaster - is what making a big difference in our mindset because it has not quite yet "passed into history". I'll tell you something from personal experience; as a scuba diver, I have done several WW2 and other wreck dives including penetration. One of them was on and into the wreck of the Yamagiri Maru in Chuuk, one of the ships sank during 'Operation Hailstone' in February 1944. There is a rather famous spot in that wreck dive where one can penetrate into a part of the engine room and looking up, can see a human skull embedded in the mangled machinery. I did not feel particularly disturbed on seeing it (neither did any of my co-divers) and I even took a picture of it. Later we discussed it and other things during lunch. It seemed like the event did not affect us that much because it was the result of a wartime event and was by then almost 70 years old.

Several years before I had taken part in another wreck dive, this one of the passnger ship Salem Express off Safaga in the Red Sea. That one sank in 1991 with loss of around 500 lives, something which we had all read extensively in newspapers and seen the TV coverage. Therefore, diving that wreck only18 years later and seeing debris containing things like transister radios, bathroom fittings, modern luggage etc created a strong 'contmeporary' feel which all of us found very uncomfortable and difficult to come to terms with.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I am no legal beagle and that aspect doesn't interest me all that much, and 3 of the 4 victims were billionaires so its not like I am rooting to see them get some $$.<<

I don't do the class envy thing. Whether they're billionaires or impoverished is of no consequence: If what happened to them is wrong, then it's wrong. That's all there is to it.

>> I do know that if there is fraud/deceit involved that would be legal grounds for overturning the waiver ,, And for that matter, all sorts of legal documents, whether they be a will, prenuptial or whatever, get challenged and voided all the time.<<

And it may very well work out that way. Like I said: Stay tuned.

 

[JesseK]

Hmm, had to google what "class envy" even means.
I don't consider myself to have "resentful feelings against people of a higher social class", was just simply saying, they don't need the $$ so any lawsuit would actually be more on principles ,,, And in that regards, I wouldn't at all mind seeing anyone in on the charade presenting this vessel as a fun, safe way to dive 12k ft, financially ruined.

 

[Steven Christian]

Absolutely right and that - being to soon after the Titan disaster - is what making a big difference in our mindset because it has not quite yet "passed into history". I'll tell you something from personal experience; as a scuba diver, I have done several WW2 and other wreck dives including penetration. One of them was on and into the wreck of the Yamagiri Maru in Chuuk, one of the ships sank during 'Operation Hailstone' in February 1944. There is a rather famous spot in that wreck dive where one can penetrate into a part of the engine room and looking up, can see a human skull embedded in the mangled machinery. I did not feel particularly disturbed on seeing it (neither did any of my co-divers) and I even took a picture of it. Later we discussed it and other things during lunch. It seemed like the event did not affect us that much because it was the result of a wartime event and was by then almost 70 years old.

Several years before I had taken part in another wreck dive, this one of the passnger ship Salem Express off Safaga in the Red Sea. That one sank in 1991 with loss of around 500 lives, something which we had all read extensively in newspapers and seen the TV coverage. Therefore, diving that wreck only18 years later and seeing debris containing things like transister radios, bathroom fittings, modern luggage etc created a strong 'contmeporary' feel which all of us found very uncomfortable and difficult to come to terms with.

I envy your diving experiences. Wish I had done more of that. Yes time heals all wounds as the saying goes.

 

[J Sheehan]

Here's a video from the YouTube lawyer known as LegalEagle, and it's about the potential lawsuits and legal action that inevitably gonna come out of this.